Issues with stretching screens. 280 and up.

[screenxpress]

I really wish we could switch to roller meshes, but he higher-ups don't want to spend the money..which I can understand. =/

I know you already have a stretcher so the money savings is harder to justify to them.  But you could maybe study the labor involved vs newmans.  Newmans should last practically forever without the need to put new mesh on unless it busts.  So then add into that the cleaning up of glue and the gluing that is required plus if you start to let them sit before taking them up that is another HUGE set of time they have to sit on the machine where as with a newman you can lock it down, set it aside, tension a bunch more and then the next day take them up to the next level and you can do 10-20 in a day vs 1 a day.

I think you hit the nail on the head with cleaning up of glue and the gluing that is required .  I cannot see how it any cheaper overall.  Not to mention, less healthy grinding off the old glue putting dust and aluminum in the air.  Hope they're wearing a mask.

[ScreenFoo]

I really wish we could switch to roller meshes, but he higher-ups don't want to spend the money..which I can understand. =/

I know you already have a stretcher so the money savings is harder to justify to them.  But you could maybe study the labor involved vs newmans.  Newmans should last practically forever without the need to put new mesh on unless it busts.  So then add into that the cleaning up of glue and the gluing that is required plus if you start to let them sit before taking them up that is another HUGE set of time they have to sit on the machine where as with a newman you can lock it down, set it aside, tension a bunch more and then the next day take them up to the next level and you can do 10-20 in a day vs 1 a day.

Although I'd agree NRF's are a great investment, the one frame/day seems like an odd claim.  I have a mechanical stretcher for statics and have stage tensioned three or four in a day easily--and I take my time.  If you look at the amount of actual labor time involved, I find they're very similar.  I can slip mesh and tension an NRF or my stretcher in nearly the same period of time.

Although it's great to stretch NRF's in batches, and can more efficient time wise, they are much harder to clean ink and emulsion off of than square profile statics, and temperamental if you don't--to the point of not being able to stretch or destroying mesh if the channels or mesh contact areas of the frame aren't clean.   It takes me approximately the same amount of time to clean an NRF properly, or to clean and grind a static properly.

Don't get me wrong, I use both, and think each type of frame has it's place--but if you NEED to stretch ten or twenty frames a day and you don't run hundreds of screens a day, it may be a good idea to find the reason for that.

Also, if you think you'll never need to replace mesh that hasn't busted on an NRF--you haven't put enough impressions on one yet.   

[Gilligan]

Well, the discussion was centering around leaving screens stretched over night/24 hours before taking it up to level 2 (maybe I'm remembering that incorrectly).

In regards to people not putting enough impressions on their rollers well, I've heard of many many years on the same mesh.  You certainly can get more impressions out of a retensionable than a static, if you are wanting high tension at least.

[ScreenFoo]

Just so you know, I've got an 86/100 @ 28N and a 125/72 @ 25 that I stretched four years ago-- now you've heard of statics with at least many years on the same mesh.   

I would definitely agree you get more 'good' impressions with excellent reg out of a roller than a static.  Unfortunately, many of the money-persons (shop owners and customers alike) only care about 'good enough'. 


As far as the thread goes, I'm interested in hearing if Mattie's had better luck with the tips--I get the feeling either there is either a little detail being missed, or a meter that's out of whack, etc. 

[tonypep]

Well, the discussion was centering around leaving screens stretched over night/24 hours before taking it up to level 2 (maybe I'm remembering that incorrectly).

In regards to people not putting enough impressions on their rollers well, I've heard of many many years on the same mesh.  You certainly can get more impressions out of a retensionable than a static, if you are wanting high tension at least.

[Printficient]

I really wish we could switch to roller meshes, but he higher-ups don't want to spend the money..which I can understand. =/

I know you already have a stretcher so the money savings is harder to justify to them.  But you could maybe study the labor involved vs newmans.  Newmans should last practically forever without the need to put new mesh on unless it busts.  So then add into that the cleaning up of glue and the gluing that is required plus if you start to let them sit before taking them up that is another HUGE set of time they have to sit on the machine where as with a newman you can lock it down, set it aside, tension a bunch more and then the next day take them up to the next level and you can do 10-20 in a day vs 1 a day.

You are correct.  As to the grinding of the old mesh and glue, that is the worst thing you can do as you do not want to remove any aluminum from the frame as this makes it weaker.  Also if it is a cheap frame you could grind or sand completely through the frame.  At Xenon we do NOT grind or sand our re-meshes.  We do NOT remove any aluminum from the frame.  What we do do is a multi step process engineered to get the longest life from the frame and the mesh.  I have a customer in Chattanooga that reclaimed 1500 of our frames that are 10+ years old and put them back in rotation.  Good for them bad for me as I was re-meshing for them by the pallet load.  If you re-mesh correctly by the time you invest in the equipment and materials not to mention labor, we can do it for you at less cost.  That is also figuring buying the mesh from me as I have ridiculously low prices for high quality mesh.  Example 60" wide 110 mesh is $6 per yard.  As most of you know I am not a big fan of retens because I do not think we as an industry can hold all of the parameters to get the full benefits out of an expensive process.  The equipment we use as well as the substrate we print on really does not require tensions much above 20ncm. 
Just my 2 cents. 
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year from Xenon.

I think you hit the nail on the head with cleaning up of glue and the gluing that is required .  I cannot see how it any cheaper overall.  Not to mention, less healthy grinding off the old glue putting dust and aluminum in the air.  Hope they're wearing a mask.

[Frog]

Just so you know, I've got an 86/100 @ 28N and a 125/72 @ 25 that I stretched four years ago-- now you've heard of statics with at least many years on the same mesh.   

I would definitely agree you get more 'good' impressions with excellent reg out of a roller than a static.  Unfortunately, many of the money-persons (shop owners and customers alike) only care about 'good enough'. 


As far as the thread goes, I'm interested in hearing if Mattie's had better luck with the tips--I get the feeling either there is either a little detail being missed, or a meter that's out of whack, etc.

What? You mean actually get back to the topic of the OP and address those issues,  rather than the usual roller vs.static spiel? How quaint! 

[tonypep]

After years of testing in a real production environment using multiple fabrics and techniques we have seen no noticeable difference between 2 hrs and 24. Therefore we can stretch 16 screens per day as necessary.

[alan802]

After years of testing in a real production environment using multiple fabrics and techniques we have seen no noticeable difference between 2 hrs and 24. Therefore we can stretch 16 screens per day as necessary.

This is what I've found.  I've got pages and pages of screen stretching data and the mesh elongates at almost the same rate whether it takes me several hours to stretch it in stages and pulsing, or just bringing it straight up to the highest level and moving on to the next one.  The screens I stretch in stages and the ones I have pulsed are only slightly higher in tension after the first run through production, probably in the 3-5% range which is not worth it given all the added time you spend with them.

If a 230 can't get up to it's target tension then it's too much stress in the corners, or a tension meter is seriously out of whack or the stretcher is not functioning properly.  I guess there could be other things causing the problem but not probable.  Mesh will bust on our roller frames and roller master if there is a nick in the channel, corners aren't softened properly, over-tensioned or roller master malfunction, that's pretty much it.  I don't think a static stretcher will be much different, shouldn't be.

On a side note, I did get to inspect a ton of screens that were made from Xenon, and I'll be honest, I was impressed.  I didn't have my tension meter with me but they felt like they were in the mid-high 20's for the 110's, 20 on the 230's and 305's.  Now I cannot say what they will be after a few runs through production since I don't know the mesh manufacturer and can't really tell you how good or bad the mesh is at elongating.  The frames were spotless and had to be brand new, I doubt you could refurbish a frame back to that level of cleanliness.

I think we should start a thread on one of my favorite debates, low tension versus high!!! 

[Frog]

I think we should start a thread on one of my favorite debates, low tension versus high!!!

After Tony and the feds get all of you guys on WB, the importance of that issue may lessen considerably.

[Printficient]

After years of testing in a real production environment using multiple fabrics and techniques we have seen no noticeable difference between 2 hrs and 24. Therefore we can stretch 16 screens per day as necessary.

This is what I've found.  I've got pages and pages of screen stretching data and the mesh elongates at almost the same rate whether it takes me several hours to stretch it in stages and pulsing, or just bringing it straight up to the highest level and moving on to the next one.  The screens I stretch in stages and the ones I have pulsed are only slightly higher in tension after the first run through production, probably in the 3-5% range which is not worth it given all the added time you spend with them.

If a 230 can't get up to it's target tension then it's too much stress in the corners, or a tension meter is seriously out of whack or the stretcher is not functioning properly.  I guess there could be other things causing the problem but not probable.  Mesh will bust on our roller frames and roller master if there is a nick in the channel, corners aren't softened properly, over-tensioned or roller master malfunction, that's pretty much it.  I don't think a static stretcher will be much different, shouldn't be.

On a side note, I did get to inspect a ton of screens that were made from Xenon, and I'll be honest, I was impressed.  I didn't have my tension meter with me but they felt like they were in the mid-high 20's for the 110's, 20 on the 230's and 305's.  Now I cannot say what they will be after a few runs through production since I don't know the mesh manufacturer and can't really tell you how good or bad the mesh is at elongating.  The frames were spotless and had to be brand new, I doubt you could refurbish a frame back to that level of cleanliness.

I think we should start a thread on one of my favorite debates, low tension versus high!!!

Thank you Alan.  We do refurbish our screens as clean as we can.  The customers that we re-mesh for consistently get the same tension on re-mesh as new.  We are still manufacturing from scratch 700-1200 screens a day and re-meshing around 300-500.  The mesh comes off the weaver at Saati and is for all intents and purposes Saati Smart Mesh just with Xenon stamped on it.  We buy more from Saati Italy than Saati America does.

[ScreenFoo]

Isn't Smartmesh Nittoku's brand?

I was always under the impression that stage tensioning was only for those using a mechanical process--i.e. not a pneumatic stretcher taking up the slack from elongation and keeping a consistent tension like the OP's unit, or an L2.  I'd think pulsing would be the quickest and easiest way to get a little better stretch out of quality mesh on an air stretcher. 

Tony:  I was hoping someone who may actually NEED to stretch 10-20 frames a day would weigh in.  Great info.  Hey, wait, how did you get 32 hours in a day?  No fair.   

[tonypep]

We stretch 4 up on a table I custmized using M&R components. Last time I checked my math 4x4=16
I may break it down to a smaller unit to do 2 up as we are noticing inconsistent tension.

[ScreenFoo]

It all makes sense now.  And for a minute I thought I had figured out your secret to success.   

[tonypep]

Ha! Just to clear things up we do not need to do this on a daily or weekly basis. Every couple of months for a few days, maybe. But when we do it's set up to maximize production.