pre-registration system

[Shanarchy]

I would like to start a conversation about pre-registration systems.

First, what are the available options?

M&R tri-loc

Newman pin registration system

Vastex VRS

Am I missing any?

Now I am not talking about a system to ensure you can register your screens on press. This could be accomplished with a t-square and ruler.

What out there will, when used properly, allow you to pop your screens in and be ready to print (butt registration). I know MHM has there own thing, but it is exclusive to MHM presses (as far as I know).

Should carrier sheets be used on the exposure unit? It seems like this would leave less wiggle room then transferring them to the screen via 2 sided tape. However, is there any negatives to the carrier sheet used during exposure?

The Newman system really seems like it would be the most accurate. But also the most expensive.

How accurate are the bump stops that you line the screen up against on the tri-loc or vrs? Do they leave room to play? Is it easy to leave a slight space?

Let's here some thoughts.

[tpitman]

I've got the VRS from Vastex that I got on the cheap with my used press. Truthfully I haven't really used the platen jig in a few years, but I do use the layout board and the punched mylar sheets for registering. I've got a piece of tape on my exposure unit with marks for frames, and I butt the mylar carrier against the tape edge. This is on my AmerGraph MH exposure unit. I had some stops I'd glued to the glass of my old homemade unit for registering the frames.
For what little I used the stops on the exposure unit and the platen jig, I can't say I ever got dead nuts registration. On the other hand, as I've used the press, I find I have to make fewer and fewer adjustments when setting up a job, so I might try adding the stops to my exposure unit again, use the jig, and see if I can speed up registration. Theoretically, it ought to work everytime. Possibly in the past off-contact might have played a part. If I do get off my lazy a$$ and give it another shot I'll post.

[Clark]

opposite the bump stops on the tri-loc are springs, so there is no play.  You just put the screen in, then with your hand,  tap the screen toward each bump stop and the screen is secure.  To be honest...I love the tri-loc, but I despise carrier sheet like no other contraption I have ever encountered.  I am saving hard for a cts machine just to never have to use one again unless it's on the rare occasion where I need  to use 25x36 screens.  Then I might even just line up on press to not have to mess with them. 

[prozyan]

I picked up a VRS at a yard sale for $50 early last year.  I've gotten a dead on registration at press for two color jobs, but never more.  Seems there is always one plate slightly off on three or more colors.  That said, any adjustments I've had to make have been extremely minor, like at most a half turn of the micros.  For $50, I'm more than happy with it.

[Shanarchy]

tpitman, have you considered purchasing an extra set of the pin bars for the carrier sheets and adhering them to your exposure unit glass? What did you use for bump stops when you glued them to your old units glass?


Clark, what is it that you do not like about carrier sheets?

proyzan, was this on butt registration 2 color jobs? How far off would the 3rd color be? What do you think causes it?

[ebscreen]

Are there any systems that use punched film and pin registration like old offset machines?
With the low cost of films these days it seems like it might be a worthwhile idea.

[Frog]

I used to do that on my films, and exposure unit to standardize screen placement, but had no special matching jig on the press.

[Homer]

Are there any systems that use punched film and pin registration like old offset machines?
With the low cost of films these days it seems like it might be a worthwhile idea.

ya know, I thought the same thing. If your printer prints in registration, why can't we have holes placed in the film and ditch the carrier sheets -that's assuming your printer prints dead on. With a paper drill, I'm sure you can do a few boxes of film in no time. . .now that I'm using beveled blades, my reg is a ton easier -I may be able to look into a reg system. . .hmm. . .

[Evo]

ya know, I thought the same thing. If your printer prints in registration, why can't we have holes placed in the film and ditch the carrier sheets -that's assuming your printer prints dead on. With a paper drill, I'm sure you can do a few boxes of film in no time. . .now that I'm using beveled blades, my reg is a ton easier -I may be able to look into a reg system. . .hmm. . .

I think you would not want to rely on the inkjet placing the image on each film exactly right, from film to film. The media transport in an inkjet is just not that accurate.


You could print the films, line them up on a light table and then punch them all at once.

http://www.cartoonsupplies.com/product_info.php/cPath/29/products_id/308?osCsid=c21d89acaa28340f9d0c885c06c9fe30

[prozyan]

proyzan, was this on butt registration 2 color jobs? How far off would the 3rd color be? What do you think causes it?

Yeah, simple 2-color spot job, butt registered.  Its not always the third color that is off, sometimes its the fourth or fifth, just seems anytime I do more than two colors, one of them is off.  No idea why.  I would assume its because I only use two points to fasten the carriers to the screen, so its not completely secure and some minor shifting occurs.  Its never a major adjustment.  In fact, its within millimeters usually.  Not a big deal for me at all.

[ebscreen]

Punch through your reggie marks.

[Evo]

Punch through your reggie marks.

On the films or through the mesh?

 

[tpitman]

tpitman, have you considered purchasing an extra set of the pin bars for the carrier sheets and adhering them to your exposure unit glass? What did you use for bump stops when you glued them to your old units glass?


Clark, what is it that you do not like about carrier sheets?

proyzan, was this on butt registration 2 color jobs? How far off would the 3rd color be? What do you think causes it?

I have a set mounted onto a piece of acetate. Never got around to install them on my (not so) new exposure unit. As it is my films are all relatively in the same place on the screens so set ups are fairly fast.
On my old unit I used three 1-1/2" pvc pipe caps attached to the glass with silicone sealant, open end down, as stops along with the pin bar for registration. The main reason for not installing them on my new unit was because I was doing some yard sign jobs and I needed to keep the glass area free for the larger static frames I was using for those. It would always require that at least one of the caps be farther out in the field of glass to allow for a three-point contact arrangement to engage the frames, unless I jammed it into a corner. I'd rather keep my screens more to the center of the glass, not knowing if there is any light fall-off as you approach the corners of the glass. Getting those caps off my old unit was a bitch, too. That silicone sealant doesn't like to let go. What I really need to do is rig up some sort of a jig for the exposure unit that incorporates the 3 caps and the pin bar that can just be laid on top of the glass, and onto or into which the screen frames slide up against the caps.

As for a pin registration system and carrier sheets, I like them. Less messy than taping films to the bottom of a screen to try and keep the image in the same area from screen to screen.

[alan802]

I have a partial newman pin system here at the shop, and some of the major pieces to it are missing.  I have an idea of fabricating a system using it but it's going to cost us about 500 to get the parts I need.  I made our own regi system and it works rather well, but it all depends on the person taping the film to the screens.  Right now, my guy doesn't believe in the system so he doesn't take the proper time and care to use it to it's potential...ignorant to say the least.  I bought the Vastex VRS and it did not work very well at all.  My DIY system works so much better than the Vastex.

When I was trying to make my own regi system, I was having a hard time duplicating the stops on the film positioning unit to the pallet jig, so I made them one in the same.  Without the proper tools to ensure the stops on both units hit the screen in identical spots, you'll always get weird results.  I need to make some changes to our system and beef up the FPU/pallet jig.  I despise carrier sheets and do not use them with our system.  I need to make a good video of our system, the ones I made aren't that good.  Ours can be duplicated by anyone willing to do it themselves, you don't need carrier sheets and the results are good.  I think it could be better, and would love to use the triloc for a brief period to see how my DIY compares.

Shurloc now has the newman pin lock adapters for the EZ frames so that is one of the reason why I'm looking to put the newman system into production and see how well it works.  I have the pallet arms and the glass regi board but I'm missing the blue aluminum piece that fits onto the FPF that the frames lock into when taping film to screen.  I don't understand how that piece could disappear but I've turned this shop upside down looking for it.

I'm a huge believer in the pre regi system.  When used properly they make a huge difference.  When I get the newman system in place I'll report on how well it works and do a comparison with our DIY.

[tonypep]

The problem I always had with the M&R system was the carrier sheets. At one company we actually had a "Pinning Department" where one full time employee was responsible for pinning, creating namedrops, and cleaning/ re-using the carrier sheets. So one could crunch the #s and argue that the salary for that employee was not justified by increased setup times but those figures are a bit intangeable. Now; I doubt that simply drilling film positives will be anywhere near as accurate but who knows.
DTS is starting to look better and better.