eighty screens in eighty minutes (DTS cons and pros)

[GraphicDisorder]

Come on inkbridge, that's the way things go.  The "PM's" start flying and the phones start ringing and the next witch hunt is on.   

We all know Sam is an ass, he knows it too, but he has passion for his business it seems.  Some of you could learn something from him about that.

[Gilligan]

You guys need to stop picking on Sam. He runs his shop his way and you run your shop your way.
We're all sharing information, and that's what the forums are all about

EXACTLY... but that is where the problem is.

I came on here and was honestly interested in his ROI information that he had promised.  He claimed that he was still compiling information "for example I'm still realized I'm saving $40/year on scotch tape".

I simply pointed out that $40 bucks a year wasn't worth the trouble of not coming forward with all this ROI information that he was bragging about.  Then he got all upset like I pee'd in his cheerios because I said $40/year on a $40k investment was an extreme small savings.

Since then he's busted my balls and claimed that he wasn't going to SHARE his information because of people like me who fail to see how important saving $400 bucks over 10 years on a $40,000 investment is.  Hell, I even admitted that I enjoy finding small little savings like that but it was still extremely minor compared to all the other info he should have to achieve an ROI of 11 months.

Sharing information and doing things different IS what this forum is all about... some handle it "differently" than others I guess.

Speaking of generosity, gratefulness and this forum... I just meshed up one of those "drops" that you gave me to 28 newtons... scary stuff.  Some insane man suggested I take it to 35.   I'll be happy with 25 at the end of the day!

[Frog]

Let's just all try to remember to "play nice".
That's what keeps people coming here and contributing.
Arguing and bickering is the number one reason (are the two main reasons?) that many otherwise potentially helpful folks don't like to play on forums.

My attempt at levity was not laughing "at" anyone, but rather meant as a break from the direction that the debate had taken, and its less than cordial mood.

[GraphicDisorder]

You guys need to stop picking on Sam. He runs his shop his way and you run your shop your way.
We're all sharing information, and that's what the forums are all about

I simply pointed out that $40 bucks a year wasn't worth the trouble of not coming forward with all this ROI information that he was bragging about.  Then he got all upset like I pee'd in his cheerios because I said $40/year on a $40k investment was an extreme small savings.

Do I agree counting tape would be a bit extreme in the small businesses MOST of us here run, absolutely (more cost in time to count it than savings of said item).  But if you are doing a true ROI, you'd count everything.  I have seen some of these style reports from 50+mil a year companies (my father was a VP of one), and it was VERY amazing what was in a report like that.  Sam may be over doing it on what he was counting but if you truly cared what he had to say about his ROI maybe you should have put your keyboard down and let him either do it or not.  Instead I am sure you put your 2 cents in....  In other words maybe you are restricting how or if info is being shared.   Outside looking in, it's fair enough to believe you wanted him to post his findings so you could do what you did before he even posted it, attack some aspect of it.  Tape for example.

[Gilligan]

You guys need to stop picking on Sam. He runs his shop his way and you run your shop your way.
We're all sharing information, and that's what the forums are all about

I simply pointed out that $40 bucks a year wasn't worth the trouble of not coming forward with all this ROI information that he was bragging about.  Then he got all upset like I pee'd in his cheerios because I said $40/year on a $40k investment was an extreme small savings.

Do I agree counting tape would be a bit extreme in the small businesses MOST of us here run, absolutely (more cost in time to count it than savings of said item).  But if you are doing a true ROI, you'd count everything.  I have seen some of these style reports from 50+mil a year companies (my father was a VP of one), and it was VERY amazing what was in a report like that.  Sam may be over doing it on what he was counting but if you truly cared what he had to say about his ROI maybe you should have put your keyboard down and let him either do it or not.  Instead I am sure you put your 2 cents in....  In other words maybe you are restricting how or if info is being shared.   Outside looking in, it's fair enough to believe you wanted him to post his findings so you could do what you did before he even posted it, attack some aspect of it.  Tape for example.

So, you are making assumptions about what happened AND what my intentions in doing said presumptuous act.

Truth of the matter is... ABSOLUTELY tape should be accounted, everything should for a true ROI, like you stated.

I have stated several times that I absolutely LOVE the idea of a DTS and was truly interested in seeing the information.  Things like $40 in tape are great to have but shouldn't be holding back gross initial findings.  I stated back then that all you would have to do is say "Man, I am still finding savings over here, like $40/year in scotch tape... but here are the numbers I've compiled so far and this has us at an ROI of X months.  I'm sure I'll be adding to this and finding more ways it's saving us as we go.  I'll keep this post updated as I do."

You participate in enough forums to know that this is how most people would have handled that sort of information.

Now you SUGGEST that my point was to lay in wait and pounce on his data like I did the tape situation.

Well, not only are you guilty of what you are accusing me of (and that goes way beyond just that statement and into the very act of posting itself actually), but you would be very mistaken.  Facts are facts and one can not dispute facts.  If he's saving $40/year in tape then that is what it is and that is a savings to account for, for anyone looking to do this.

The reason you or maybe even he feels like he will be attacked is because he suggest such a short ROI of 11 months and that shocked a lot of people and a LOT of people did not believe that initial suggestion and wanted to see the numbers behind it.  I'm way to green to be tearing apart his process and where the flaws in the numbers he could have posted up would be.  But clearly I wasn't the only one that he was concerned about (or at least should have).

I am sure I'm not alone in wondering if the FACTS/numbers aren't really there or he doesn't want to expose something else that others would, and have, pointed out.  These are things that I haven't and would not address, but others that are more in the know would.  So far only Sam is coming up with under a year in ROI on a DTS in a shop his size, everyone else has MUCH more reasonable analysis and estimates that jive with just about everyone else.  If Sam in fact can show that everyone else is missing something then he should just post up the numbers.

When I initially reminded him that he said he would have numbers for us "shortly", I like many here just was genuinely interested in the data.

If you honestly think I had some stranger motive to my post than you are completely fishing and looking to make me out to be a much more maniacal character than I think any sane person could be (though we do know of another that is that ridiculous... but not many of us would call him "sane"   ).

In the end, there have been quite a few well respected individuals on this forum that have stated the same and way more than I have in regards to this abnormally short suggested ROI and have also found it a bit over the top to get all pissy about $40/tape being suggested as not worth holding back the gross findings over.  You are even in that column technically.

I just don't see why there are a very small few that think there is some sort of "anti-DTS" faction here on the forums.  I honestly have not seen a single person that flat out says "DTS, is dumb and a waste of money".  Yet one of those same people that has NOT said that has suggested the same about some of the other technology that I and others have suggested might be a better ROI (auto coaters and auto reclaimers).  You don't see anyone getting pissy about them and their opinions.  Quite the contrare, I have taken their words to heart and now don't regard such technology as so "dreamy" as I did just a couple of days ago.

Maybe it's all perspective, I bet I could find a lot of ROI on an AutoCoater... but then again, we really suck at coating screens right now.  Do we suck to a point of a 20k dollar investment?  Nope, not at all, but maybe the numbers would be there if a started looking at how many napkins it takes to clean up a spill, now much wasted emulsion is costing us, time blah blah blah.  So maybe it's all just perspective and where you are lacking in your systems.

In the end though... we all just wanted to see some data that was promised so we could see maybe something we were missing.  But Sam took his ball and went home with it because he didn't like the way someone said "hey, pass me the ball!"  *shrug*

[Mr Tees!!]

...I dont think my "tape, dammit!" comment, nor the ridiculous bidet/ROI comment were meant as a way to mock or belittle the way Sam runs his business. If hes happy, well good for him!

... However, the way he presented the ROI with fantasy-income counted directly against the investment, and applied before the new work is available is just plain flawed. We have yet to hear a response to this, seemingly under the guise of "my ways and results are superior to anyone elses, and dont question it or I wont share"  Am I making an assuption in that? Yes absolutely..but at this point in the discussion, that is all we have to go on, isnt it?

...another contributor to this thread mentioned being able to bring $6K of outsourced work BACK in house as a result of moving to DTS. Now THAT is ultra-fast ROI writ large, my friends!!! And it is proof that DTS is absolutely viable is some conditions. I think its a wonderful advancement, but like any new technology, it will probably be 10x better and 10x less expensive in ten years. Then it will be more accessible, and probably the industry standard, in almost all sized shops.

[prozyan]

....a bunch of stuff....

The horse is dead.  The beatings can stop.

[inkman996]

Something that needs to be said.

Sam bought a DTS then said he is working out the ROI, not sure where his logic is in buying a Capitol piece of equipment then figuring the ROI? He obviously must have had an ROI figured out before he bought the machine, if so then why does he need time to pass the information on to the rest of the forum. More Iortantly if his ROI is rock solid on his M&R machine why not support M&R and publish his ROI?

Most of us here are smart enough to know the machine does not make significant changes to your out put unless ofcourse you were previously turning work away or working to much over time. That's all common sense stuff. So people like mek and some others KNOW the true ROI is quite a bit longer for a shop SAMs size.

Just read Flying Colors statement on his ROI, it makes much more sense, he is much much larger than Sam and he was beyond capacity yet his ROI as predicted by Mark is at least twice Sams.

People here would rather hear the significant numbers that make up the ROI and savings not the trivial things like tape. I am smart enough to know that a bit of tape saved is probably off set by some other aspect of DTS.

I personally as well as someone else I won't mention but who is well respected for his knowledge and ability to run a tight ship also feels its a bit ignorant to tout such an extreme ROI for such an expensive piece of equipment knowing that very small shops might take that advice and blindly waste it on something they have no business buying yet. Yes some here will dump big bucks on the tech just for the case of ease of use, but not everyone will have that luxury, some are struggling to grow their business and buying tech like DTS will not help grow their business.

[inkman996]

BTW Andy I as well just trying to bring some levity with the bidet metaphors, not meant to insult anyone directly.

As for what I just wrote I can understand if you think it's a bit to much badgering against one person but I feel it is important to have two sides of views to such expensive and serious equipment, that way interested parties can see both sides of the coin and hopefully make the correct decision for their business. I guess maybe if you feel take SAMs name out and replace with Mr. XX or something lol.

[Frog]

I'm not pointing any fingers at specific people or posts. It's more a matter of "vibes". 
It's apparent to most folks when discussions get contentious, and I'm just hoping that we can all try to keep discussions friendly.

I hereby declare that at the very least, in the spirit of the season, between Thanksgiving and New Years, The Shirt Board will be a no bad vibe zone! (wishful thinking as it may be)

Happy Festivus! Save your gripes for the traditional Airing of the Grievances.

[GraphicDisorder]

....a bunch of stuff....

The horse is dead.  The beatings can stop.

 

[tonypep]

Well well well. Certainly did not mean to make this thread to be inflamitory but perhaps this is what the site is all about.
Stay tuned as I am composing a topic about color theory.........all I can say is that influence from the outside is invaluable.
Cheers tp

[alan802]

I never wanted anything to turn into a witch hunt, but we all know when we feel strongly about something we usually speak up about it and challenge, it's human nature.  This topic has certainly got people thinking and talking which was what I was interested in doing as well as post my position on the ROI of a new piece of technology.  I got passionate because I happen to be very serious about this technology and have done way more research and crunched way more numbers than the average shop would do and I didn't come close to getting to Sam's numbers and I thought it was my responsibility to say something, as well as others.  Like Mike said, Sam gets a lot of respect from others and when he says something, people usually listen.  I found the ROI he was getting to be nowhere near what I was figuring and then got to thinking how one could achieve that.  Well, after thinking about it and even talking to others who have thought about it I came to the conclusion that there are some things not being said that are very important to the argument and that fueled it for me even more.  For this forum to work properly, it does nobody any good to keep important information out of the ROI equation that others are going to use because they trust what people are saying.  So you come to the conclusion that even if 10% of what is written on a forum is BS, and 20% is imbellishment, then you shouldn't believe anything you read.  But we all know there is good information to be shared here as well and we would be stupid not to at least try and share that info with others so they can achieve success, right?

I was one of those people that months ago when Sam said he would post up his ROI findings with his DTS, I was really looking forward to that because if his shop can benefit from the use of DTS, then ours could too.  I've always found that the more screens you do per day the more the decision to buy one makes sense, so if Palomar is seeing a great ROI then we would too.  Then when Sam said he wasn't going to share the info he said he was, it was end of the discussion as far as I was concerned and I was ready to find the info from someone else.  Then this thread happened, things were said that quite frankly, I'll be honest and open, I didn't believe based on the numbers available and now here we are.  I do know there is a way to get an 11 month ROI at a smaller one auto shop so it's not that I don't buy that, it's just that with the numbers you have to "assume", it didn't add up.  We have to assume the price of the machine, we have to assume the number of screens per day, we have to assume a reasonable production efficiency existed in the shop, all those numbers plus a few more are why some of us are questioning things.

I do believe Sam when he says there are lots of hidden savings that he's found, I would love to hear what they are specifically but I've got a brain and have used it to figure out what most of them are.  If you can find 10 little things like the scotch tape example then were talking serious yearly savings.  $40 per year in savings shouldn't be completely ignored in the big picture, but like others have said, I wouldn't put too much stock in something that small on such a large purchase unless there were dozens of little things to add to it.  I'm a nut when it comes to getting really technical about this process and I count beans as closely as anyone, I've even calculated how much ink is on an average shirt we print, how much it $ in emulsion we have on each mesh count, really trivial stuff if you look at each one individually, but the sum of all the parts adds up. 

I have changed my mind a little on whether or not a one auto shop should consider a DTS.  I still think there are probably more than a few things most shops could do differently to see a big advancement in efficiency but if your really close to maxing all those processes then DTS is the next logical step.  I think if we continue to do as many repeat jobs then we will have to wait a bit longer on a DTS machine than other shops our size that don't do the repeat jobs.  But those shops like Sam, Mike at Evolutionary, shops that operate like them can see success with a DTS even though the ROI will be longer than the shop that's cranking out 60 screens per day.  Spending $40K (on average for a DTS) on a machine that will yield at least one more job per day in your production capacity makes sense.  If that piece of equipment only gets you 2 more jobs per week (most likely what SRI would see) then it almost becomes a coin flip in whether or not to spend the money.  With a scenario like Tony's, a DTS would likely decrease their output and is a no brainer, unless the cost for film and ink is astronomically higher than what it would cost to have a DTS do the same work that it would offset the production output decrease.  But now we are doing a completely different calculation and it's a very unlikely situation so let's not waste time on that scenario.

I'm rambling now so let me get back on point, if a small shop can afford a DTS, if it will make their lives easier, if it will keep them from having to hire one more employee, even if their ROI is 5 years then I would say you could take a chance.  It would have to be a trouble free unit that will be very reliable but I think we might have gotten over that hill by now.  I think 2 years ago the technology wasn't reliable enough for a shop that was expecting a short ROI and now we might actually be close to a plug-and-play, no headaches DTS machine from more than a few manufacturers.  I've laid out the reasons why DTS doesn't benefit our shop as much as other similar shops and with Tony's shop being the exception to the rule for larger shops, DTS is an easy decision for the shop doing over 50 screens per day and not a ton of repeat jobs.

I do apologize for the contentiousness of some of my posts.  My argument was about ROI, not whether or not DTS was good technology.  I tried to tell people how it may or may not benefit every shop.  I think everyone should be able to see how it doesn't benefit Tony and even our shop.  When someone says they think I'm wrong, then I will fire back with facts that back up my findings/opinions. 

[Prosperi-Tees]

Alan, I did not read all thru this thread and if you posted your numbers I apologize but would you be willing to share your calculations as it pertains to the ROI in your shop?

[alan802]

Alan, I did not read all thru this thread and if you posted your numbers I apologize but would you be willing to share your calculations as it pertains to the ROI in your shop?

I've posted a lot of numbers but they are all spread out and not neat and organized.  I'll see if I can get something nice and tidy.  I have an ROI spreadsheet but I need to simplify it to use for individual equipment instead of listing everything in the entire shop.  I don't know if the original owner of my ROI spreadsheet would want it posted so making a new, more simplified versus seems like the way to go.