eighty screens in eighty minutes (DTS cons and pros)

[tonypep]

My point exactly.........we have 42 heads in a different department in the same building. Totally independent. Still we train people to mult-task as much as possible. And remember we are shooting 4 auto screens at a time.For where we are and the way we work DTS would pose a constraint from what I have deduced. Your results may vary.

[GraphicDisorder]

My point exactly.........we have 42 heads in a different department in the same building. Totally independent. Still we train people to mult-task as much as possible. And remember we are shooting 4 auto screens at a time.For where we are and the way we work DTS would pose a constraint from what I have deduced. Your results may vary.

Ya I wouldn't think DTS would improve your situation, at least not 1 of them. 

Our situation I feel like it would improve it.  Mainly because too few of us wear too many hats already.  So any savings in time for us is a bonus.  But again I am not fully sold on it.  I think it's just important for us all to understand not every shop runs the same and given that different configurations would work for or against shops differently. 

Some day I hope to have a independent staff on each side, I certainly think life would be easier then!

[alan802]

My point exactly.........we have 42 heads in a different department in the same building. Totally independent. Still we train people to mult-task as much as possible. And remember we are shooting 4 auto screens at a time.For where we are and the way we work DTS would pose a constraint from what I have deduced. Your results may vary.

Ya I wouldn't think DTS would improve your situation, at least not 1 of them. 

Our situation I feel like it would improve it.  Mainly because too few of us wear too many hats already.  So any savings in time for us is a bonus.  But again I am not fully sold on it.  I think it's just important for us all to understand not every shop runs the same and given that different configurations would work for or against shops differently. 

Some day I hope to have a independent staff on each side, I certainly think life would be easier then!

Your going about it the right way.  Add as you need and you'll eventually have something similar to what we have.  It's not rocket science but you need to understand all the processes before you can control them, which wearing all the hats now will help immensily in the future when your less hands on.

[blue moon]

What about what Pierre brought up?  I know by looking at the specs they should do higher lpi and resolution versus film, but Pierre has seen one up close and says the halftones are not what he gets on film.  That's not as big of a deal for some of us, but it's just one more reason to think about it.

From my experience we are getting a BETTER dot with our DTS than printing film. I did a comparison the very first day we got the dts hooked up comparing our Epson 4800 using Accurip to our lawson dts unit. We have since calibrated the dot to be better on our machine so I'm confident to say our dts can print a better dot.

I put my loupe up to the dot and took a photo with my iphone so the quality isn't great but you should be able to see the difference.

The first picture here is our epson 4800 using accurip.... Note the noise around each dot



This picture here is our lawson dts using the colorprint rip.




Based on our experience and what I saw castleking post yesterday I would say this technology can print a better dot but I'm sure we can debate that as well hahahaha

Pierre and I just compared dots lat week. His are cleaner that both of those pics. He has his rip dialed in pretty well. At the end of the day if you want a great quality dot you still cannot beat an image setter.

I don't think Wasatch will produce any better dot than the FM (if set up correctly). We are running in high speed 1440 mode so the dot can be even cleaner, but the films were taking significantly longer. For what we do, this is a god compromise.

Back to the topic . . . the 1/4" gap that the ink has to travel is bound to produce lower quality dot than the imagesetter. Actually, there are NO inkjet printheads (that I have ever heard of) that will deliver the dots a laser imagesetter does. I have looked at the dots under a significant magnification, and laser dots are perfect. Inkjets have a varying degree of smoothness, and as stated RIP does make a big difference, but in the end, they are bubbly in the best case scenario. Since most of us don't have imagesetters, the comparison is moot, but some of us have our inkjet heads dialed in pretty well. Printing on film that is only a 1/32nd of an inch away (and smooth) will always be smoother. 'not sure how well that translates into smooth edges on the mesh, but ours are pretty darn crisp. Several imagesetters I did check out, with ink on the screen and on the paper, were very jagged. Probably the worst dots I've seen so far. Images posted by Danny look significantly better than what I have seen, but are still quite a bit more jaggy than what we are using now (and for anybody doubting the benefit of better dots, go look at Andy Anderson's prints).

Under the best of circumstances, it might be possible to have the dot on the screen be almost identical to the dot on the film, but that would require a smooth stencil (low Rz), tight off contact, higher resolution (which would slow down the printing) and so on. As mentioned already, with better units, the dot quality would suffice for 90% of our work, but for the super high end (and how many of us really do have those customers?) using film (preferably imagesetter) sounds look a good viable solution.

pierre

[inkman996]

1/4" gap between print head and substrate is quite a distance, the screen shots of your dots is amazing considering the ink traveled that far. I would assume printing in uni-directional is the best quality over bi-directional.

[screenprintguy]

Ive seen plenty of Sim process prints from shops that use CTSmachines, some prints that were showcased award winning prints, that is the least of a worry from any of the units out there. I know I just can't wait for our unit, very excited over here for it 

[Gilligan]

We have nothing like that here, everyone has to float to do our work.  Here is how my shop run's. 
<snip>
Currently we operate about like this.
<snip>

We are obviously in a similar position, just a good bit smaller and a bit more spread out.  My wife does all the artwork, my employee does some basic digitizing and he does ALL the production work, embroidery and Screen Printing.  I herd cats all day.   We now have my wife (us to a lesser degree) a personal assistant to help the wife with her day to day lesser important activities.  We even hired another one of my daughter's friends to come in and help clean the shop up.  That helps more than I imagined it would.  She is also being somewhat cross trained in the screen printing and embroidery side of things.  She will help us to proceduralize everything on paper (I know I should already have this but we are learning as we go).

The second benefit to that is it's a sword of Damocles for my production guy... it will help him to tighten up knowing that someone can easily replace him if he doesn't stay on top of things.  Of course it's great security on our benefit that if things do go south with him I have someone that can fill in or take over if she is interested.  We of course don't threaten him with this though I did make a small joke when we were all having a good time and he wined about a task he didn't like that she was looking for more hours and she looked over at him and said "it's true".  It was quite comical... they are all good friends outside of the shop so it was taken in good humor... but I bet there is a part of it that stuck with him in that he can't slack on me.

Then of course there is the PC side of the world and I recently had a good talk with my employee there.  All too often I go back there and computers are waiting on him (after a scan or update).  I explained to him that I really want to give him a raise but I'm only seeing minimum wage work right now and I need to see him on top of things more.  I explained that he has plenty of a$$ time as it is with scans and updates and I'm not expecting him to stay busy for the sake of staying busy but I didn't want to see computers waiting on him.  He thanked me for the telling him and turned it around with a vengeance... I just hope it stays that way.

[alan802]

Does anyone know the gap between the 4800's printhead nozzles and the substrate?  I'm not sure where I stand on that 1/4" distance.  I'm thinking that nobody's screens would be warped any further than 1/16" and stencil thickness for anything we might be printing on textiles wouldn't be over 200-300 microns which is about 4-6 human hairs stacked on top of each other.  The engineers who developed the DTS machines obviously know more about that distance and what is sufficient and safe that will give the quality we are looking for.  I would think they could shrink that down but I don't have the knowledge to debate it or actually give an answer as to how/why.

[tonypep]

BTW my friend has a true image setter so that puts him a bit outside the game. Coudray comes by on occaision to measure and recalibrate as necessary

[Gilligan]

Brandt, one thing to remember is that they have a FULL embroidery department in the neighboring building... Alan's people deal with mostly with screen printing full time (other than the afore mentioned rover).

Fully aware of that, which is sort of my whole point.  He get's to take a focused screen print approach to running his screen print shop.  I have to take a different approach because I am running Screen Print Shop, Embroidery Shop, Design Shop, Sticker Shop, Banner Shop, Business Card Shop, Flyer Shop, and so on.  In other words he has people do his embroidery side of their business, that sound like generally don't mix with screen print side.  Everyone here basically has to mix with all sides of our business based on how busy one is.  We are segregating them more and more all the time, but its a progression for a ultra small shop like ours.

This is basically why I think you can look at something like a DTS completely different from 2 different shops perspectives.  If we had 100% dedicated screen print staff, I would probably look at it much differently.  But we don't and to do that id have to hire what, 2-3 more full timers to run this shop at full steam embroidery/separate from screen printing one not effecting the other.  That's certainly a goal, but that's is DRASTICALLY more expensive than say adding a DTS.  Again I am not even sold on a DTS yet.

The only thing I can see that does parallel Alan's shop with just about anyone's shop is that you can have the same systems that he has in place no matter what the roles are.

Like Alan, Mike and yourself... I'm a techno junky and I think a DTS is wicked cool.  But like Alan and Mike, I see where you can speed things up to almost the same pace in most shops.

Printing films should be easier and "faster" than printing screens on the DTS... you hit print and go... no need to load screens or anything, you have a stack of films and out they come.  You can even do them remotely if you wanted.

Positioning on the screen shouldn't take up that much time... 10-30 secs at most with a good setup like Alan runs.  I never saw him take more than about 20 seconds and that was while having a conversation with 4 of us while he lined up screens... not that it requires immense focus but that is kind of the point, it shouldn't take long especially if you can focus.  So for average it out to 20 seconds a screen X 40 screens and you have 13 mins (some of which you potentially saved else where if you already had the films or the time it would take to load it up on the DTS machine itself.  That thing isn't instant, there is still processing/loading time.  PLUS you can line up films on the next screen while your first one is exposing so that completely eliminates that time.  How many screens do you burn back to back?  If you are doing it by the job then you might only have 3 or 4.  That would mean that you really don't use up but MAYBE 30 seconds for lining up films for those vs 80 seconds.  That cuts your positioning time by at least half... so we are looking at 7 mins a day at worse.

I do agree your exposure will be faster and depending on your exposure unit you might can burn more screens at once.  I've even read about people just pulling screens and starting up the unit again for a few more light units if those meshes needed a longer exposure so you don't even have to have like exposure "times".  Not many will benefit from this and this also means you need a dedicated dark room for your screens as you are blasting UV all over the place by putting them against a wall vs in a machine.  I'll also concede that your films will be tighter than by manually positioning your films... but you shouldn't be off enough to make a noticeable difference... granted there is a little bit of quality of life in that you don't have to worry/stress over getting those films lined up on your FPU and I do like that.  You remove that human element and almost any monkey can now get a stencil on a screen with the right SOP in place.

If someone gave me one today I would be using it even at my RIDICULOUSLY low screen use compared to you guys.  I think it's awesome.  But to drop the coin on it for those few benefits... like Alan I have to see more screens a day than some are saying before I see it being the right move.

I would also think an auto coater would go hand in hand with a DTS... most of the point is remove the human element out of the equation well, you have to do the same for the surface you are printing on as well.  Auto coater is cheaper and would also allow a trained monkey to coat screens.

Then there is the discussion of the auto reclaimer... I've never seen one up close but the concept is neat.  No one likes that job and it could certainly save you some labor cost, way more than a DTS will.  IF it works as well as I'd want it to.

[DannyGruninger]

Does anyone know the gap between the 4800's printhead nozzles and the substrate?  I'm not sure where I stand on that 1/4" distance.  I'm thinking that nobody's screens would be warped any further than 1/16" and stencil thickness for anything we might be printing on textiles wouldn't be over 200-300 microns which is about 4-6 human hairs stacked on top of each other.  The engineers who developed the DTS machines obviously know more about that distance and what is sufficient and safe that will give the quality we are looking for.  I would think they could shrink that down but I don't have the knowledge to debate it or actually give an answer as to how/why.

So I just went and looked at the "tool" that we use to set the print head height on our machine. I DO NOT have a pair of micrometers here so I cannot give an exact dimension but the distance is actually much much less then 1/4". That was just off the top of my head. Here's a picture of the plate tool that we use to set that and it's a bit hard to see but the distance is actually only about 1/16th of an inch. I was way off with the 1/4" but just to set the record straight it's only about 1/16th..... Since the screen cannot sit higher then the clamps in the dts unit the head has very little chance to ever touch anything.


Just wanted to clear this up

[alan802]

Nice Danny, thanks for clearing that up. 

This has been an epic thread...Sticky perhaps Frog, Pierre, Dan?

[tonypep]

I know of one shop that had an auto-coater.  A digicote. Sat unused in a back room. Didn't work they said. Actually it was a simple fix and I got it running. Turns out that it wasn't quicker and the operator could not walk away and perform other tasks as inferred. Zero affect on print quality. Cool to watch but only applicable to less than half of one percent of textile printers. Terribble ROI. It's been up for sale for seven ys or so.
I've also run auto reclaimers. Sorry most of these can't handle the rigors of production and are rendered out of service within a year (think of a large Blade Runner). Also pre-op and post op work is required to get a perfectly reclaimed screen. So it is not "automated"The exception is the very large units from companies such as Zenter which were so large it had its own platform for the operator. Up to a couple of hundred grand for those. Also terrible ROI and questions arose about how much chemicals it took to run. These are real time reports folks. Some may chime in that these work for them and i wouldn't argue that but i would say that, based on my experience that would be an exception to the rule.

Maybe when I'm dead all the bugs will be worked out and an automated push button screen operation will be a viable operation. It certainly would be cool. Self contained and tidy as well. Sorry to be a Debbie Downer but that future is not here.

[GraphicDisorder]

The only thing I can see that does parallel Alan's shop with just about anyone's shop is that you can have the same systems that he has in place no matter what the roles are.

You certainly can, but unfortunately it's just not that simple.  You should know its all about time.  We all are being pulled 100 way's, not only are we not employing a single person that is dedicated for a single task, but we can't even often do a single task without stopping to do something on another.  Putting a system in place is only as effective as you are able to use it.  So until we can do that, sometimes its worth considering how spending some money on X/Y/Z may improve your situation.  For sure not saying DTS is for me.  I am certainly still NOT sold on it. 

Like Alan, Mike and yourself... I'm a techno junky and I think a DTS is wicked cool.  But like Alan and Mike, I see where you can speed things up to almost the same pace in most shops.

They sound cool and if they tighten up registration, IMO you can save your MOST time there.  Even with a tri-loc now and again we get a job that fights us.  That costs a lot of time. 

Printing films should be easier and "faster" than printing screens on the DTS... you hit print and go... no need to load screens or anything, you have a stack of films and out they come.  You can even do them remotely if you wanted.

Yup, not really where I would assume much time savings at all.  In fact this may take longer with DTS

Positioning on the screen shouldn't take up that much time... 10-30 secs at most with a good setup like Alan runs.  I never saw him take more than about 20 seconds and that was while having a conversation with 4 of us while he lined up screens... not that it requires immense focus but that is kind of the point, it shouldn't take long especially if you can focus. 

Shelly is certainly pretty quick at it, but we are also doing a ton of 5-7 color sim process.  I feel its slightly more time consuming than your average 2 colors of ink on a shirt that a lot of you guys claim you do a lot of (just trying to keep some context here).

So for average it out to 20 seconds a screen X 40 screens and you have 13 mins (some of which you potentially saved else where if you already had the films or the time it would take to load it up on the DTS machine itself.  That thing isn't instant, there is still processing/loading time.  PLUS you can line up films on the next screen while your first one is exposing so that completely eliminates that time. 

No argument there, we line up while the first one is burning, so and so fourth. 

How many screens do you burn back to back?  If you are doing it by the job then you might only have 3 or 4.  That would mean that you really don't use up but MAYBE 30 seconds for lining up films for those vs 80 seconds.  That cuts your positioning time by at least half... so we are looking at 7 mins a day at worse.

Burn all of our screens back to back for a full week in 1 day which includes coating them.  It's tough to do for 1 person that is also doing the seps at the same time, and keeping another employee with files to run on embroidery machines, and doing all of the ordering and more.  It probably sounds simple on here, but she is worked very hard to get it done.  Even sometimes doesn't finish it in one day and we will have a job or two late in the week she needs to burn when we come in.  We have found we worked better when screens where all burnt in one day, rather than burning them day of for each job.  Easier to take a task and do it all day when possible we find.

I do agree your exposure will be faster and depending on your exposure unit you might can burn more screens at once. 

I think we could do 2 at once without the tri-loc rig on it.  So you would for sure burn faster over all in the case of a DTS.

I've even read about people just pulling screens and starting up the unit again for a few more light units if those meshes needed a longer exposure so you don't even have to have like exposure "times".  Not many will benefit from this and this also means you need a dedicated dark room for your screens as you are blasting UV all over the place by putting them against a wall vs in a machine.  I'll also concede that your films will be tighter than by manually positioning your films... but you shouldn't be off enough to make a noticeable difference... granted there is a little bit of quality of life in that you don't have to worry/stress over getting those films lined up on your FPU and I do like that.  You remove that human element and almost any monkey can now get a stencil on a screen with the right SOP in place. 

You just hit on the big one for me.  Human element.  I don't want ot work IN my business for the rest of my life.  So as we cycle people, get some good and some bad in and out of here I have to make sure the job is as easy to repeat as possible and that more or less anyone can run it.  Screens I think we would all agree is one of the most important parts of a shop and one of the easiest ways to create trouble at the press.  Take out the guess work, take out the human element, these are not negatives! 

If someone gave me one today I would be using it even at my RIDICULOUSLY low screen use compared to you guys.  I think it's awesome.  But to drop the coin on it for those few benefits... like Alan I have to see more screens a day than some are saying before I see it being the right move.

I agree that I would need to know more before making the commitment I would probably even go so far to say that I would travel to a shop with one and try to see it really in action.

I would also think an auto coater would go hand in hand with a DTS... most of the point is remove the human element out of the equation well, you have to do the same for the surface you are printing on as well.  Auto coater is cheaper and would also allow a trained monkey to coat screens.

Then there is the discussion of the auto reclaimer... I've never seen one up close but the concept is neat.  No one likes that job and it could certainly save you some labor cost, way more than a DTS will.  IF it works as well as I'd want it to.

Auto recliamer, I seen one at M&R, didn't see it running but got the concept and it sounds awesome in theory.  Not sure if they actually even sell it or what it would cost but I would agree with you that it could very well be worth the money more so than a DTS.  Of course this only works if it is mindless and you can save the labor totally.  I could imagine it next to the press and as you pull a job off you slide the screen in to the thing, this means it works while nobody is managing it.  All you have to do is load a screen now and then and pull one off now and then.  if it was in the general area of the press for us this would be very easy. 

[Frog]

Seeing the newly edited and re-titled subject for this thread made me crack a big grin, remembering a huge con about a soon-to-come never-to-arrive  DTS machine a few years back, from a true pro at stretching the truth, promising the earth (and streaming video), and not delivering the goods!