eighty screens in eighty minutes (DTS cons and pros)

[DannyGruninger]

Tony, what do you guys output your films on?

How long do you think it would take to output the 80 films that you imaged on screen regarding the topic of this post?

[inkman996]

Wonder what happened to the gizmo they had over in Asia that actually applied an image directly to the mesh, no emulsion just an actual stencil. There was a video on it once some where on one of the many forums.

[tonypep]

Tony, what do you guys output your films on?

How long do you think it would take to output the 80 films that you imaged on screen regarding the topic of this post?

Roll film about a buck per foot if I remember right. Remember our business model. Most of those films were libraried. They already exist. New stuff is sent to the printers then the artists go back to designing. No one is standing by the printer waiting for films. Most of them are loaded up right before closing so no time really. They are ready in the morning.
Remember I'm feeding four autos and three manuals. What am I losing? Downtime on setups. But it seems like I would need at least two of these in order to keep up. Increased setup times would result in even more increased screen throughput.
I'm really enjoying this thread. I'm hoping Pierre will weigh in

[DannyGruninger]

Tony, what do you guys output your films on?

How long do you think it would take to output the 80 films that you imaged on screen regarding the topic of this post?

Roll film about a buck per foot if I remember right. Remember our business model. Most of those films were libraried. They already exist. New stuff is sent to the printers then the artists go back to designing. No one is standing by the printer waiting for films. Most of them are loaded up right before closing so no time really. They are ready in the morning.
Remember I'm feeding four autos and three manuals. What am I losing? Downtime on setups. But it seems like I would need at least two of these in order to keep up. Increased setup times would result in even more increased screen throughput.
I'm really enjoying this thread. I'm hoping Pierre will weigh in

Tony, how many screens do you guys image in a single day and what is the percentage of those that are new orders where you have to print film? I can do a quick time estimate for you based on our equipment. I know if we had a dts unit with 3 print heads we would be able to image around 400 screens a day. Are you guys doing more then 400 each day?

Since your business lends itself toward the traditional film method it's probably a mute point but if your under 400 screens a day 1 machine would keep up with that and the increase in setup times would increase the throughput by a large amount I'm sure.

[Inkworks]

I'm just curious as to why the DTS is so much faster for on-press screen set-up? Is it just that manually positioning film with a good system is not accurate enough?

Great stuff on this thread, keep it coming guys!

[Socalfmf]

ink...it takes out 1 human interaction...you do not have it moving due to poor taping or moving on suck down ect...it keeps it in line with each other...thus being faster set up times...

sam

[Ron Pierson]

I'll weigh in here. We are looking over this system hard. I think it is more than a DTS machine or two. It's more about time studies, RIP viewing, and space savings. I went to the SGIA show and saw alot of them. They all pritty much do the same thing - toner on a screen. One thing I noticed - you will need good screens. 

Where I see the savings is in the time we get back. Waiting for a vacuum to suck down a screen - 30 seconds? We do about 2-300 screens a day in our buisy season. our blankets are just about 30 seconds for a drawdown. 30 seconds times 200 screens = 1.5 hours back to screen production a day. what can be done with that extra 1.5 hours in a screen room?

We have figured out how to not use tape for squeege side block out. We use screens with permanent block-out. (yes - it IS PERMANENT and yes - tension is consistantly 25 newtons in stretch and glue)Another time study here - 30 seconds to apply, 45 seconds to remove. I'm sure you can do the math again on this one. One more thing previously mentioned - no reggies - again, no tape. One more thing about tape, I won't have to buy as much (if at all). BIG savings here.

Another thing - space gained by not having to store files. I know what it is like to have 5000 files - I have that now - much more than that. What can be done with the extra space gained here? Is there a profit center that can be put in the library's place? Maybe another press?

Without the right RIP, you are running blind. I know that there is a checking process when an artist drags those films from the printer (or should be) and looks them over. We are all scared that this process will disappear - I was. The right RIP will show you a different way of viewing that is even more efficent than trying to "look thru a black toner to check for correct". I was amazed at what is out there. The checking process is now digital and in color - with a ZOOM - and an opaquing function so you can actually "see" the chokeback white under the top color. When you can see halftones at 200% IN COLOR - well.....

Some have said that they "just push print, lock the doors, go for a beer, and get films first thing in the morning" . This exists with the right RIP. You will do the same thing - RIP and go home. Now, you can come in late and your screen guys are half way thru the "RIP'd files left in the que" in the screen room for them to get started with. They can even do their own "checking for correct" in their viewer before they burn screens. Of course, as an artist, you have to do your own checking but you can RIP the files and view BEFORE you que up. Even if you don't DTS - this would be a major advantage for an art room to have files "right" before film is produced. How many times have you ran films only to have a "do over on the green film"?

One last thing - setups on press. I think the answer is obvious. Your set up time would go down by half or more. If this is true - again - what can you do with this extra time gained? Print more shirts?

We all are given 24 hours. It is just a question on how to use it wisely. Has technology come to the rescue of wasted time? Will your employees be more accountable for their actions (art room, screen room, press operators, reclaim) The jury is out but I think I know the verdict.

I'm not paid by anyone to make these statements nor have any interest in a particular company.

Ron Pierson


 

[BorisB]

How many DTS units are out there? 

Kiwo I-jet II, wax-based ink

M&R I-image & I-screen, waterbased ink

Lawson Express Jet, waterbased ink?

Douthitt CTS Digital Screen Imager (great product name), fantastic website as well...insert fart noise here, wax based ink



Exile Technologies (formerly OYO Instruments) Spyder, wax based ink, Diablo & Goblin, both thermal ribbon

Acti Camera Legend 2800, Screenjet 3100, Legend 6460, waterbased ink

Richmond Direct Jet Pro and Direct Jet Max, waterbased ink

Jackhammer Tech, CTS Jackhawk 9000

Did I miss any?  Got to be one or two more out there.

Are all these actual producers? Didn't know there were so many. Alan you excluded all DLE producers due to price? I know some US transfer printers use Signtronic units which are over $ 200.000. The new eco DLE from Cst is around 120.000€. I haven't seen it working but I know a guy having it in his shop, and he loves it.

My opinion on speed: Our DTS is very slow, from what you all wrote. But it's speed is not important. I look at our whole process in a way taught by Goldratt's theory of Constraints. In the end it's always presses that are bottleneck for bigger throughtput, never screens. We wouldn't produce more shirts with fastest DTS in the world. But even our slow DTS makes our setups shorter and we print more shirts.

[Socalfmf]

I think it all goes back to what works in your shop might not work in others...but I think people are ONLY looking at the dts as a stand alone not as a whole and how it works in the shop....I know what works for us and I will keep doing it and keep making the $$$ because I want to buy a plane in 2013!

sam

[alan802]

How many DTS units are out there? 

Kiwo I-jet II, wax-based ink

M&R I-image & I-screen, waterbased ink

Lawson Express Jet, waterbased ink?

Douthitt CTS Digital Screen Imager (great product name), fantastic website as well...insert fart noise here, wax based ink



Exile Technologies (formerly OYO Instruments) Spyder, wax based ink, Diablo & Goblin, both thermal ribbon

Acti Camera Legend 2800, Screenjet 3100, Legend 6460, waterbased ink

Richmond Direct Jet Pro and Direct Jet Max, waterbased ink

Jackhammer Tech, CTS Jackhawk 9000

Did I miss any?  Got to be one or two more out there.

Are all these actual producers? Didn't know there were so many. Alan you excluded all DLE producers due to price? I know some US transfer printers use Signtronic units which are over $ 200.000. The new eco DLE from Cst is around 120.000€. I haven't seen it working but I know a guy having it in his shop, and he loves it.

My opinion on speed: Our DTS is very slow, from what you all wrote. But it's speed is not important. I look at our whole process in a way taught by Goldratt's theory of Constraints. In the end it's always presses that are bottleneck for bigger throughtput, never screens. We wouldn't produce more shirts with fastest DTS in the world. But even our slow DTS makes our setups shorter and we print more shirts.

Those are just the ones I know about.  Except for one.  Sucks when you lob a joke out there and nobody picks up on it...crickets...

I've been looking hard at this for a long time.  I've done the numbers six ways from Sunday, ROI based on our shop, how quickly we turn around screens and setups, etc., it's just nowhere near 1 year.  I keep second guessing my math but then I run them again, being even more and more conservative, then more and more in favor of the DTS and I'm reminded that we just aren't going to benefit yet.  I know our processes like the back of my hand, I know how long it takes us to do every possible task out there, we average 20 screens a day with at least 18 of those having more than one image on them.  If we were using the triloc properly then we'd be at 40 screens per day and DTS would be much closer to reality.  Our film is libraried along a wall and finding a repeat job takes literally 5 seconds when you know the design number and aligning the film on the screen is anywhere from 5 seconds to 30 if you are being extremely careful.  On new jobs, DTS would be as fast as film for us, printing out film and printing on a screen are very similar in time, so we save time on the film alignment and exposure, several minutes per screen, maybe up to 45 minutes a day if all we had were new jobs.  If we used the DTS on repeat jobs then we'd lose those 45 minutes plus another 30-45 minutes so we aren't at a net time savings yet.  I'm thinking our ROI would be there only if we had a DTS that could output images in less than a minute.  There is no way to ignore all the work and time that has been done and hanging on the wall in the form of libraried film, no way to get around it, a DTS would slow us down on all repeat jobs and we do a ton of repeats, probably 60-70% of our workload.  If our workload were 50% new and 50% repeat then we'd literally be within several minutes of labor at the end of a day with or without DTS, so $40-60K is hard to swallow with those numbers looming around. 

We also NEVER look at printed out film for mistakes or as a quality control checkpoint, it's printed out and it's right, 99.9% of the time.  I can't remember more than 5 times in 6 years where we've had to reprint a piece of film because something was output wrong.  Our artist must be good I guess.  As soon as the film comes off the printer it might be on a screen within minutes.

I can see scenarios where a shop could benefit from DTS with low screen usage, but obviously every shop is different.  I'll keep on checking the ROI for DTS, but right now it doesn't make sense on paper until we get around 30-40 screens per day.  I'm glad other shops are finding the benefits with DTS, it gives me hope that when it finally is in place here it will be a great new tool.  I think shops who do a lot of repeat jobs need to remember that when you use film, that process is only done one time and every other time the job is printed you remove that step of the process and can get a screen into production really quickly.  I do think our press setups will be faster with DTS, but we are fast in this department already and we won't see the huge labor savings that some shops will.

As you can see, this is a tough decision for some shops to make.  We are in no-man's land it seems but as we grow it will become more clear...I hope.

[Socalfmf]

Alan

I have to disagree...in my former life I was an X-ray Tech and we had our films cataloged 2 feet from the exposure unit with a light table in between...we were fast at getting film, we were fast at setting said film...but we are FASTER with the dts...there is no line up...there is no looking for the film ect...it is right there ready to go...by the time you go the film out I would be exposing the first screen...and then the set ups are faster so you can get more set ups per day, thus increasing your screen output...

again go with what you need to, but I can tell you once you get it in house you will see more and more time savings steps...heck just putting the film back is a great reason to get a dts..I really disliked doing the refiling...guess I did that too much in the military....

sam

[inkman996]

God there is so many facets to this to be looked at wow.

Sam I have to disagree with your disagreement with Alan.

We also have our films catalogued in the same room as our expo unit. The thing is your way of explaining it makes sense except you leave out a step on your end. For instance I have a job to run repeat, 4 color. All I do is tell the back room guy the job and the folder it is in, he goes pulls the four films takes 30 seconds. You have to access a computer, find the art file send to que and so on. Again thats time must be equal to finding the films. My guy found all four films at one time and while the first time, while the first screen is being developed and second is burning, I or him which ever is in the expo room is already refiling the films as they are used, it works perfectly for us and things stay organized and no one is sitting around waiting on a screen to burn etc.

[screenprintguy]

We are tired of film, tired of chasing it, cataloging it, the whole process, we ordered our I-Image last week, can't wait for that bad boy to come in. Lot's of 8 color, mostly 6 and 8 color jobs that we do. A lot of our customers require print proofs before we run as well. With a small staff, this makes sense for us, to be able to lock and load accurately, taking  out the whole grid alignment, triloc in the exposure unit, carrier sheet mess, we, when read to expose will now be able to lay 2 screens at a time in the unit, no glass or film, with the Richmond, probably looking at 20 second exposures, I won't be able to keep up with that. Our big thing is ROI in the set up and re-set department. If we had 10 people on deck to do all of these tasks that 2 of us do on press, it would be different, but I can totally see how this is going to benefit us in a huge way, and the best part, by going with an M&R unit, Rich's direct quote, Mike if you don't see that it will do what we say it will, we will take it back and refund your money. You can't beat that! I'll be giving a ton of feed back, but I'm freakin excited as all get out now!!!!! Not that you guys don't, but we have verrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrry picky customers and anything that I can do to stream line what we do and eliminate variables in pre-press will help us greatly!!!   Thanks for the vid and pics last week Sam!

Mike

[inkman996]

Don't get me wrong I am just like Alan I drool over the thought of owning a DTS! Also just like Alan we cannot see the ROI in a reasonable time period.

My hope is as it becomes more popular the price will come down, when its in the low 20's then yea we could justify it. Also our printing load is rising exponentally this past couple of years thanks to pushing for more printing work and approaching brokers we shied away from when we only had the Javelin. My hope is in another year or two our printing and screens are doubled and again that will make the justification for a DTS even easier.

[blue moon]

Tony, what do you guys output your films on?

How long do you think it would take to output the 80 films that you imaged on screen regarding the topic of this post?

Roll film about a buck per foot if I remember right. Remember our business model. Most of those films were libraried. They already exist. New stuff is sent to the printers then the artists go back to designing. No one is standing by the printer waiting for films. Most of them are loaded up right before closing so no time really. They are ready in the morning.
Remember I'm feeding four autos and three manuals. What am I losing? Downtime on setups. But it seems like I would need at least two of these in order to keep up. Increased setup times would result in even more increased screen throughput.
I'm really enjoying this thread. I'm hoping Pierre will weigh in

'been reading and paying attention.  It is hard for me to say anything from experience as we are still so inefficient that a DTS would not make any difference. I am also worried that we will lose some of the dot definition by going directly to the screen. Right now our dots look pretty good (nice and round with very little bumps) and the DTS stuff I've seen is pretty ragged looking.  We are holding a 3% dot at 60lpi and are pushing the limits of the mesh (this is calibrated 3% which is equivalent to what AccuRIP used to print as 6-7%) so unlike most others that improve the halftones with going digital, I think we would be at a loss. Smart thing would probably be to hold on to the film output device and use it for the high end jobs!
I can also see where Tony would have less advantage to switching with all the films already cataloged. It is quite possible that in the end he would benefit from it, but I am just talking out of my behind right now.

I think the best point was brought up by BaumanB. If it is not a bottleneck, chances are there are better ways of spending money. One would have to be able to calculate the time savings in man hours and have a good ROI based on that rather than production numbers. As many here will agree, the ROI numbers given by the manufacturers never really work out. I think if Ron with a large shop can move one person from the screen dpt to the production floor and on top of that decrease setup and save on tape it makes it easier to justify!

We were at 40 screens/day this summer, and while it would be tempting to think it would be a good investment, we had (and still have) improvements that are higher on the list. I also think that for that kind of money we can get another auto that will bring signifcantly more to the bottom line than a DTS. Please remember this is coming form a startup shop that spends all the money on the upgrades and growth (around $200k in last four years) so the money is not just sitting in the bank being unused. For some of the bigger shops that have cash sitting in the bank it is a no brainer.

So my thoughts are, "we will get one as soon as the finances allow it, but there are several pieces of equipment that are ahead of it."

pierre