Screen mesh panels - the myths, the facts, and the future

[Printficient]

In thinking of this I came to the conclusion that if one does not pop many screens than the time to install panels over bolt mesh is a non sequitur. 
If one works at a shop that pops a lot of mesh then the cost savings of the bolt mesh is a no brainer.
The time factor here is in the initial installation of mesh.  When retightening the mesh there is very little difference between the two.
This is one of those things that the industry needs to educate (NOT sale) the end user on. 
While there is a very specific need for retens, the honest fact of the matter is they are not necessary to print high end art.
This industry needs to quit selling things and start sharing the basic thought processes to print any level of art on a shirt.
The only way to make it today is to cut costs.  You do not need a Corvette to go to the store.  If you want one and can justify the costs of one against your bottom line than by all means get one.  Just know that you can get to the store just as well on a bicycle.
OK Let me have it.   

I am on your side, I value new and creative over outdated traditionalism. Any choice made on facts and a clear understanding of the cost structure is a good choice.

An example, you could buy a bunch of used wood frames with mesh similar to a drunken co-ed on the Vegas strip and end up spending lots of production time lining up the job and then never getting it to line up (the mesh stretches out of registration). The choice of the cheap wood frames became a liability.

If a newbie chooses to use panels in his one man shop and then pull the panels rather than reclaim is that a bad choice? If that increases his print time when he is likely already up to his neck, if he includes the price in the job and knows his profit margin and cost structure - could anyone call that a bad choice?

I am just the heretic.

I think that a newbie would be better off with static frames.  I would encourage the newbie to learn to print correctly at all steps of the process.  If this is done then the static frames would hold their tension longer.  I do not think I would be comfortable giving a 16 year old driver a Corvette right outside the DMV. 
I am not totally against Retens, I just ask that people use their common sense and learn how to print first.  There were phenomenal prints off wood frames with the mesh stapled on LONG before Retens hit the market.
There are a lot of other places to spend the money that would benefit the end user ahead of retens.
Once again I feel that the suppliers and manufacturers have done the industry a disservice by not educating them on what we are all trying to do...Print a shirt.

[tpitman]

I'll horn in with my two cents. Started with roller frames almost from the get-go. I can't tell you how much bolt mesh I've wasted with tears trying to get screens as tight as I like. Started using Shurlocs and have never had an issue with them. The corner softening is spot on . . . much better than I could ever get with loose mesh and the strips no matter how well I followed instructions, measuring to ensure mesh alignment, the whole ball of wax. I bought a bunch of 156, 195 and 230 Sefar bolt mesh off eBay at a really good price. Heard a "rumor" that Shurloc would make up panels from customer mesh, so I called them. Sent in all but about half of my 230. Crapped when I got the bill, even at $7 a panel, because they got a lot more finished panels out of the bolt mesh than I ever could tearing it by hand. All I can say is it's a first rate product, not cheap, but worth every penny for ease of use and the assurance that you can tension them up to spec.
I also use a Newman frame table, so meshing and retensioning frames goes quickly and accurately. I can't count the times in my life I've wasted time and money trying to cheap out on tools. For those with the skill to load bolt mesh and get the results they want, my hat's off. For me, the frames, panels and table have been money well spent to eliminate a variable.

Pitman Graphics
www.pitmangraphics.com

[Evo]

I think that a newbie would be better off with static frames.

I could not agree less.

Why build an inventory of anything in your shop that is not the best equipment you can afford? Used roller frames can often be had for less then the cost of new static frames, and if they are Newmans they will last for many years. Most of my frames look like they were used in a warzone and they work perfectly.

I think any newbie should learn from the first print stroke that this is SCREEN printing. Your printed results are ONLY as good as your screen. Eliminate any screen problems as a variable, and then you have a clearer picture of what your strengths and weaknesses are in regards to developing your printing skill.

Note: I have several static frames here but I have relegated them to single color print duties and usually dark inks on light garment at that. Once you've printed with properly tensioned screens it's painful to go back. Sometimes LITERALLY painfull when pushing heavy inks.


Not to mention re-tensionable frames:

Reclaim easier
De-haze easier
Use less ink
Require less print pressure
Reduce fatigue when printing manually (this is HUGE for newbies)
Allow lower off-contact
Provide better registration
Greatly reduce ink build up printing wet-on-wet
On and on and on....

Why would a newbie want to skip all of these benefits??


If I was able to go back to all the shop I've worked at and learned at, and do it all over again, there would not be one single static frame used. To think of all the evenings I spent putting ice on sore wrists from trying to jam ink through a low tensioned screen...and all of the 100's of man hours spent trying to reclaim and de-haze all that hopelessly loose mesh...

[Socalfmf]

WTF Sonny...really?  yeah lets waste money buying something that we will not keep...that makes no sense what so ever in the real world of business.  I would tell everyone to buy retens and more specifically newmans since they are the best on the market...but your point is to buy substandard equipment to learn to print correctly?  really? 

so should someone start off using substandard equipment so they can learn to print right?  how about having the right tools for the job....?
sam

[ZooCity]

Have you measured that cost to actual mesh use per screen, when I did over a year ago it was about seven bucks...

I have not checked this again, and do not even know what current mesh prices are, have you checked?

150/48 for example...

By the yard, yields 2 screens:  $16  or $8 per screen

By the panel:  $29.30 per screen

And that's at the first qty discount for the panels, mesh is at single yard prices. 

So that's what, 73% more than bolt mesh.  You could count the lock strips but that's a one time purchase. 

And yes, if you throw in labor time it probably works out to be a good deal with the panels in that you can work on something else instead but it takes me about 15-20 minutes max to load a screen carefully, square to the roller with corners softened specifically for the mesh count and tension I'm going for.  We're talking a few hours a month here.  What I can't afford with our print schedule these days and our small library of 30 screens is to have a popped screen mid run and have spend that additional half hour to remove the busted mesh, reload and go.  The panels are going to kill it in scenarios like that.  Also, with a small screen library, I can now detension screens and load in different panels if that needs to happen without losing mesh.  This is why I went with the panels. 

Tensioning takes the same amount of time whether you use panels or bolt mesh.  You have to "seat" the bolt mesh a little more carefully but no big difference there.

I think I have now officially spent more time debating this issue than it would've took to load hundreds of screens with bolt mesh.   

[Printficient]

WTF Sonny...really?  yeah lets waste money buying something that we will not keep...that makes no sense what so ever in the real world of business.  I would tell everyone to buy retens and more specifically newmans since they are the best on the market...but your point is to buy substandard equipment to learn to print correctly?  really? 

so should someone start off using substandard equipment so they can learn to print right?  how about having the right tools for the job....?
sam

My quote is simply that if one prints with the proper set parameters then excessive pressure is eliminated.  Eliminate excessive pressure and you eliminate the first need for a roller.
The tighter you get a frame the more EXACT the press parameters become.
Most presses will not hold the parameters for screens over 30-35n.

[Printficient]

  What you say is true and yet not true. 
Point in case: 
Requires less squeegee pressure.  Tighter screen requires less pressure to deflect than a loose one?  The amount of off contact to print properly with a static is an infinitesimal amount more than with a reten.
The only thing retens have going is if done correctly they do give a constant parameter in tension.

All I am saying is that the cost for printing with retens is a bit much for someone coming out of the gate.
Yes there are many used retens on the market...I wonder why.
Not trying to start a fight here, just trying to get the understanding of why and why not.

150/48 for example...
Mine is $8.50 a yard which equals $4.25 a frame

[DouglasGrigar]

Have you measured that cost to actual mesh use per screen, when I did over a year ago it was about seven bucks...

I have not checked this again, and do not even know what current mesh prices are, have you checked?

150/48 for example...

By the yard, yields 2 screens:  $16  or $8 per screen

By the panel:  $29.30 per screen

And that's at the first qty discount for the panels, mesh is at single yard prices. 

So that's what, 73% more than bolt mesh.  You could count the lock strips but that's a one time purchase. 

And yes, if you throw in labor time it probably works out to be a good deal with the panels in that you can work on something else instead but it takes me about 15-20 minutes max to load a screen carefully, square to the roller with corners softened specifically for the mesh count and tension I'm going for.  We're talking a few hours a month here.  What I can't afford with our print schedule these days and our small library of 30 screens is to have a popped screen mid run and have spend that additional half hour to remove the busted mesh, reload and go.  The panels are going to kill it in scenarios like that.  Also, with a small screen library, I can now detension screens and load in different panels if that needs to happen without losing mesh.  This is why I went with the panels. 

Tensioning takes the same amount of time whether you use panels or bolt mesh.  You have to "seat" the bolt mesh a little more carefully but no big difference there.

I think I have now officially spent more time debating this issue than it would've took to load hundreds of screens with bolt mesh.   

You are assuming there is some “debate” on this issue, you would assume I would worry about being wrong, or that I and others are not getting some value from the exchange of views.

I looked up 230 with the same mesh I know is the default and the numbers I got are not near that, but that is just fine even taking inexpensive mesh as a comparison and a huge increase in the price I continue to support the idea and product.

Your ability to seat and tension mesh is not comparable to a newbie or even a new customer and the panels have benefits, we don’t have to even use a product in a particular shop to understand the possible value in the correct place.

[Evo]

Point in case: 
Requires less squeegee pressure.  Tighter screen requires less pressure to deflect than a loose one?

It's not about deflection, it's about the transfer of ink to the substrate. Ink will pass through highly tensioned mesh much easier than a low tension mesh, as the open area is maximized. Side benefit - since the tension is high, the off contact is very low, requiring even less pressure. Double win.

The amount of off contact to print properly with a static is an infinitesimal amount more than with a reten

Sorry but that is flat out wrong. The tension on static frames can be all over the place, requiring various level of off contact from screen to screen. With a nice set of correctly tensioned re-tens, the off contact is not only minimal, it is consistent from screen to screen. (valuable point whan using central off contact on some presses)

The only thing retens have going is if done correctly they do give a constant parameter in tension.

Well, this is the only thing, then I think most would agree it is the MOST important thing, as it affects everything about the screen.



Honestly I can't really believe this is even open to debate. If static frames were a viable long term choice than most shops would stock them and stop there. Re-tens, in my humble opinion, stomp static frames into the dirt.

[DouglasGrigar]

Honestly I can't really believe this is even open to debate. If static frames were a viable long term choice than most shops would stock them and stop there. Re-tens, in my humble opinion, stomp static frames into the dirt.

You are assuming any resistance to the “new” idea of retensionable frames ever stopped.

I don’t see any resistance to the “new” panel idea stopping any time soon.

There is no doubt that the benefits of higher tension mesh can be tested, and repeated.

It does leave the question, where will the hybrid screens fall into place in your view.

[Socalfmf]

Come on Sonny. Isn't screen printing about?  Having statics increases this vs. Retens. With retens you can set the newtons in order to have constants  thus leading to repeatability on many fronts. 

Sam

[Evo]

It does leave the question, where will the hybrid screens fall into place in your view.

I don't really consider them hybrids, it's just another method of attaching mesh to frame to make a static screen, just with no glue involved.


Roller frames offer infinite adjustment of tension, and therefor can truly be called "re-tensionable".

[DouglasGrigar]

It does leave the question, where will the hybrid screens fall into place in your view.

I don't really consider them hybrids, it's just another method of attaching mesh to frame to make a static screen, just with no glue involved.


Roller frames offer infinite adjustment of tension, and therefor can truly be called "re-tensionable".

So level 2 is not enough? Is not the addition of the green slides qualify as at least partly “re-tensionable”?

How much adjustment is needed after stabilization and the tension desired?

[Printficient]

Come on Sonny. Isn't screen printing about?  Having statics increases this vs. Retens. With retens you can set the newtons in order to have constants  thus leading to repeatability on many fronts. 

Sam

I agree you can have a consistent range across the board with retens.  All I am saying is that one should not tell a printer that they have to have retens to print.  I here this everyday talking to customers.  So and so said you have to have retens.  I think you will agree that there are not any prints that "require" retens.
If you are printing HD then a reten is beneficial.  As to the registration issue, if a static is that far out of tension then replace it.  You have probably done hundreds if no thousands of jobs with it.  I know of some shops that have had the same static screens for ten years or more that are still using them.

[tonypep]

Not going to get involved in this mess. I know I can use both in a profitable and efficient manner. Just want to let you know about a new product from Nazdar called Panel frame Quick Frames. Rigid frames that use a tensioning tool and I believe no glue. Now I have no idea what tension levels can be achieved that would certainly depend on mesh and other variables but I am intrigued so I am having one sent and will report back.
cheers tp