screen printing > Screen Making
Screen mesh panels - the myths, the facts, and the future
DouglasGrigar:
Just to start off - I do not nor does the company I am associated with sell the Shur-Loc mesh panels.
I do have to confess that I have a very good working relationship with Sherri and Jim Larson, I do not work for them, they have never been a client and I have never received any money from them for any services or promotion. I do think they are great folks, have never had any problems with them and always try and make time to say howdy when they are about. I just like the products and the people.
So some myths:
Price - I have actually seen things like this...
--- Quote ---there are supposed benefits you hear from the salesperson and the reality. A piece of mesh under five dollars converted to a Shur-Loc panel sells for over twenty dollars. You are paying over fifteen dollars for the supposed benefits of the panel.
--- End quote ---
(**Revision) Using the same mesh to mesh comparison the price I calculated was lower than fifteen dollars, price for converting your mesh is less than 10 bucks per panel. Price comparison must be same quality and brand mesh to be accurate. I will be visiting this question with Shur-loc at the next show.
Chemical use
--- Quote ---Use of acetone, ketone, MEK, napthas, esters, or toluene may cause the adhesive to to dissolve and release the mesh in the middle of a run.
--- End quote ---
Some things are just strange, who in their right mind is giving the outside edges of their frames a bath in acetone or lacquer thinner? The esters we use most in screen printing are vegetable oil based I have yet to see a frame with a Shur-Loc panel change at all with exposure to the vegetable oil products, and have yet to see any problems with the common reclaiming chemicals.
Because I and most of us try and not take a bath in screen opener (RPG in a can) and don’t tend to spray in into the frame edges I have not run across a problem yet.
Ease and time
--- Quote ---Shur-loc panels take half a minute to insert and I can insert cut mesh into a roller frame in under a minute.
--- End quote ---
Try five seconds for the Shur-loc panel, and for inserting cut mesh in under a minute, well I leave that to the intrepid reader. Interesting how corner softening time, and how parallel the threads are was not mentioned.
Mesh to frame corners
Simple answer is a question “does mesh stabilize or not?” The selling point of retensionable frames was the benefits of stable mesh for thousands of consistent prints - so a pre-softened panel can be made with the correct corner softening from the beginning. SEFAR has lots of information about this as does SGIA including thread diameter and how the threads do not change diameter consistently.
They mix cheap mesh to rook the customer
--- Quote ---Shur-loc uses the cheapest mesh to make the highest profit. They don’t tell you the mesh because they change mesh to the cheapest available at the moment.
--- End quote ---
Jim told me that one mesh is the “default” this mesh was a name brand we all recognize and unless someone requests another mesh this default name brand mesh is used. If you call Jim and ask him (as some obviously do not) he will tell you the exact mesh and is happy to use even your mesh if you wish.
Use and benefits
--- Quote ---You have to use the same mesh for as long as possible to get the most out of your mesh. You cannot print well without maximum tension and very thick threads.
--- End quote ---
What is the most profitable thing in your shop?
Easy answer, anything that gets the most (quality) product out to the customer in the least time.
Now we can get into long threads on the board over exactness of dots, EOM, print speed, the pros and cons of thin (s), medium (T or M) , and thick threads (HD) and for this we need an end, something that translates to business, promotion and profit. Your customer can see a moiré pattern in the screen, ragged edges from malformed and blocked high end dots, but can they see deposit layer - and do they care? Not that in any way am I advocating low quality printing, only that the traditional tunnel vision over equipment and techniques needs constant review. Of course funny numbers by someone trying to downgrade perceived industry competition or threats is problematic. Lots of traditionalists are also ignoring or covering up some real and valuable data like the fact that maximum tension is not always the best tension for a given ink.
Why bother?
Because the Shur-loc panels have a place, and will as I see it now make an impact similar to retensionable screens - the full range of applications to help make a profit are not known yet.
ZooCity:
--- Quote ---What is the most profitable thing in your shop?
--- End quote ---
That's what it all boils down to. I can load mesh very intuitively and properly in not much time at all. But even a few hours a month are better spent generating artwork or working with clients or hell, even taking a break for minute to recharge, in terms of the company's net income and ultimately it's profitability and long-term viability. That's not going to be the case for a shop with more staff that could be easily trained to load bolt mesh when there's "nothing else to do", it's just our unique situation.
One thing you got wrong- panels are much more expensive, (just in terms of cost for them, not including labor and that) than bolt mesh. I know, I just ordered another 30 of 'em with Murkami S mesh and I'm here to tell ya it would've been astronomically cheaper to buy the same amount of bolt mesh and use my existing locking strips.
The shur-loc people have been top notch to work with so far. They even went as far as to send us sample panels to fit our odd frame size of 25x30. The big drawback, aside from price, that I see of panels is the fixed corner softening but they more or less nailed that as well. I simply specified the tension I wanted.
It's funny, I find myself being a heavy user this year of a few things I found silly not very long ago- dip tanks and mesh panels so far. I wonder what's next?
DouglasGrigar:
--- Quote from: ZooCity on June 01, 2011, 11:27:48 PM ---One thing you got wrong- panels are much more expensive, (just in terms of cost for them, not including labor and that) than bolt mesh. I know, I just ordered another 30 of 'em with Murkami S mesh and I'm here to tell ya it would've been astronomically cheaper to buy the same amount of bolt mesh and use my existing locking strips.
--- End quote ---
Have you measured that cost to actual mesh use per screen, when I did over a year ago it was about seven bucks...
I have not checked this again, and do not even know what current mesh prices are, have you checked?
Evo:
--- Quote from: DouglasGrigar on June 01, 2011, 11:40:57 PM ---Have you measured that cost to actual mesh use per screen, when I did over a year ago it was about seven bucks...
I have not checked this again, and do not even know what current mesh prices are, have you checked?
--- End quote ---
I would think you'd need to calculate what the per-screen cost is to install a given piece of bolt mesh, from start to finish with the labor involved vs. the cost of installing a panel of the same mesh.
(also making sure you factored in the total time to get each screen to the same tension)
Problem is, this can vary wildly from shop to shop, as the skill and cost per hour for each employee is different, as well as the speed that a given employee can install bolt mesh. With training I'm sure most people could install and tension a panel to about the same speed. Bolt mesh is a different animal. I'm fairly good at it these days and pretty quick, but I have seen it take forever with some people where as others have it nailed.
But...anyone that says they can install bolt mesh faster than a panel though, they are straight up smoking crack.
;)
Printficient:
--- Quote from: DouglasGrigar on June 01, 2011, 11:40:57 PM ---
--- Quote from: ZooCity on June 01, 2011, 11:27:48 PM ---One thing you got wrong- panels are much more expensive, (just in terms of cost for them, not including labor and that) than bolt mesh. I know, I just ordered another 30 of 'em with Murkami S mesh and I'm here to tell ya it would've been astronomically cheaper to buy the same amount of bolt mesh and use my existing locking strips.
--- End quote ---
Have you measured that cost to actual mesh use per screen, when I did over a year ago it was about seven bucks...
I have not checked this again, and do not even know what current mesh prices are, have you checked?
--- End quote ---
Here is our mesh cost.
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