Screen mesh panels - the myths, the facts, and the future

[DouglasGrigar]

Just to start off - I do not nor does the company I am associated with sell the Shur-Loc mesh panels.

I do have to confess that I have a very good working relationship with Sherri and Jim Larson, I do not work for them, they have never been a client and I have never received any money from them for any services or promotion. I do think they are great folks, have never had any problems with them and always try and make time to say howdy when they are about. I just like the products and the people.

So some myths:

Price - I have actually seen things like this...

there are supposed benefits you hear from the salesperson and the reality. A piece of mesh under five dollars converted to a Shur-Loc panel sells for over twenty dollars. You are paying over fifteen dollars for the supposed benefits of the panel.

(**Revision) Using the same mesh to mesh comparison the price I calculated was lower than fifteen dollars, price for converting your mesh is less than 10 bucks per panel. Price comparison must be same quality and brand mesh to be accurate. I will be visiting this question with Shur-loc at the next show.

Chemical use

Use of acetone, ketone, MEK, napthas, esters, or toluene may cause the adhesive to to dissolve and release the mesh in the middle of a run.

Some things are just strange, who in their right mind is giving the outside edges of their frames a bath in acetone or lacquer thinner? The esters we use most in screen printing are vegetable oil based I have yet to see a frame with a Shur-Loc panel change at all with exposure to the vegetable oil products, and have yet to see any problems with the common reclaiming chemicals.

Because I and most of us try and not take a bath in screen opener (RPG in a can) and don’t tend to spray in into the frame edges I have not run across a problem yet.

Ease and time

Shur-loc panels take half a minute to insert and I can insert cut mesh into a roller frame in under a minute.

Try five seconds for the Shur-loc panel, and for inserting cut mesh in under a minute, well I leave that to the intrepid reader. Interesting how corner softening time, and how parallel the threads are was not mentioned.

Mesh to frame corners

Simple answer is a question “does mesh stabilize or not?” The selling point of retensionable frames was the benefits of stable mesh for thousands of consistent prints - so a pre-softened panel can be made with the correct corner softening from the beginning. SEFAR has lots of information about this as does SGIA including thread diameter and how the threads do not change diameter consistently.

They mix cheap mesh to rook the customer

Shur-loc uses the cheapest mesh to make the highest profit. They don’t tell you the mesh because they change mesh to the cheapest available at the moment.

Jim told me that one mesh is the “default” this mesh was a name brand we all recognize and unless someone requests another mesh this default name brand mesh is used. If you call Jim and ask him (as some obviously do not) he will tell you the exact mesh and is happy to use even your mesh if you wish.

Use and benefits

You have to use the same mesh for as long as possible to get the most out of your mesh. You cannot print well without maximum tension and very thick threads.

What is the most profitable thing in your shop?

Easy answer, anything that gets the most (quality) product out to the customer in the least time.

Now we can get into long threads on the board over exactness of dots, EOM, print speed, the pros and cons of thin (s), medium (T or M) , and thick threads (HD) and for this we need an end, something that translates to business, promotion and profit. Your customer can see a moiré pattern in the screen, ragged edges from malformed and blocked high end dots, but can they see deposit layer - and do they care? Not that in any way am I advocating low quality printing, only that the traditional tunnel vision over equipment and techniques needs constant review. Of course funny numbers by someone trying to downgrade perceived industry competition or threats is problematic. Lots of traditionalists are also ignoring or covering up some real and valuable data like the fact that maximum tension is not always the best tension for a given ink.

Why bother?

Because the Shur-loc panels have a place, and will as I see it now make an impact similar to retensionable screens -  the full range of applications to help make a profit are not known yet.

[ZooCity]

What is the most profitable thing in your shop?

That's what it all boils down to.  I can load mesh very intuitively and properly in not much time at all.  But even a few hours a month are better spent generating artwork or working with clients or hell, even taking a break for minute to recharge, in terms of the company's net income and ultimately it's profitability and long-term viability.  That's not going to be the case for a shop with more staff that could be easily trained to load bolt mesh when there's "nothing else to do", it's just our unique situation.   

One thing you got wrong- panels are much more expensive, (just in terms of cost for them, not including labor and that) than bolt mesh.  I know, I just ordered another 30 of 'em with Murkami S mesh and I'm here to tell ya it would've been astronomically cheaper to buy the same amount of bolt mesh and use my existing locking strips. 

The shur-loc people have been top notch to work with so far.  They even went as far as to send us sample panels to fit our odd frame size of 25x30.  The big drawback, aside from price, that I see of panels is the fixed corner softening but they more or less nailed that as well.  I simply specified the tension I wanted.

It's funny, I find myself being a heavy user this year of a few things I found silly not very long ago- dip tanks and mesh panels so far.  I wonder what's next?

[DouglasGrigar]

One thing you got wrong- panels are much more expensive, (just in terms of cost for them, not including labor and that) than bolt mesh.  I know, I just ordered another 30 of 'em with Murkami S mesh and I'm here to tell ya it would've been astronomically cheaper to buy the same amount of bolt mesh and use my existing locking strips. 

Have you measured that cost to actual mesh use per screen, when I did over a year ago it was about seven bucks...

I have not checked this again, and do not even know what current mesh prices are, have you checked?

[Evo]

Have you measured that cost to actual mesh use per screen, when I did over a year ago it was about seven bucks...

I have not checked this again, and do not even know what current mesh prices are, have you checked?

I would think you'd need to calculate what the per-screen cost is to install a given piece of bolt mesh, from start to finish with the labor involved vs. the cost of installing a panel of the same mesh.

(also making sure you factored in the total time to get each screen to the same tension)

Problem is, this can vary wildly from shop to shop, as the skill and cost per hour for each employee is different, as well as the speed that a given employee can install bolt mesh. With training I'm sure most people could install and tension a panel to about the same speed. Bolt mesh is a different animal. I'm fairly good at it these days and pretty quick, but I have seen it take forever with some people where as others have it nailed.


But...anyone that says they can install bolt mesh faster than a panel though, they are straight up smoking crack.
 

[Printficient]

One thing you got wrong- panels are much more expensive, (just in terms of cost for them, not including labor and that) than bolt mesh.  I know, I just ordered another 30 of 'em with Murkami S mesh and I'm here to tell ya it would've been astronomically cheaper to buy the same amount of bolt mesh and use my existing locking strips. 

Have you measured that cost to actual mesh use per screen, when I did over a year ago it was about seven bucks...

I have not checked this again, and do not even know what current mesh prices are, have you checked?

Here is our mesh cost.

[Socalfmf]

OK.

here is my take on it...I agree with DOUG...

I used to do bulk mesh till i did a real time study for MY business....we were at about 18 min total for bulk mesh to get it cut, put in with splines, corners softened ( and not all equal I might add) stretched and then taped....

now move to shur-loc panels and that time is down to under 5 min....

do simple math...13 min of printing is over 100 shirts...13 min of cleaning screens is about 4-5 screens....i could go on and on but i think you have the idea...

I know I will not go back to bulk mesh due to the cost added even though the up front cost is more, we save so much more on the back end...

Sam

[alan802]

I have recently bought some bolt mesh and stretched about 10 screens and I hated it.  It took me forever to get the mesh in properly and soften the corners correctly.  I've been using the panels for about 2 years and there is at least a 15 minute difference for me in stretching a fresh panel to frame over bolt mesh.  I'm sure if I stretched a hundred frames with bolt mesh I could become as efficient at it as anyone, but damn are the panels fool proof and I'll bet I can load a panel and get the first tension up in 3-4 minutes using the roller master.

Now my experiences in working with Jim and Sherri have been great.  When I've seen them at shows they always remember me and the business.  I haven't had any experience with getting really specific at the tension levels I'm looking for but I have requested several different types of mesh and they have all came in perfect and all have reached the recommended manufacturer's tension level for that mesh.  From what I've heard from Dave (Bimmridder) and a few others it sounds like they have the panel making down to a science and can reach any reasonable request you have for a panel.  I've never busted a shurloc panel while tensioning a screen, and unfortunately, 2 of the 10 I've done with bolt mesh split on me because of my incompetence at loading the panel.

[DouglasGrigar]

All very good additional points - thanks folks.

One more to add to the list - removable nature and re-attachment.

So a smaller range of frames could do the job of many, why have a 25 count mesh on a roller frame semi-permanent when you could snap it in then out when finished and replace it with a more suitable mesh for the next job.

Add a stretching table - something I would never do without this all becomes just part of the set-up.

The next two things to watch are:

How the panels work into the industry.

Direct to screen replacement of positives.

Both are “old” news but it has not shaken out yet, I would say that retensionable frames have not fully shaken out yet.

When most of my work is to try and help new people with nothing but 110 white mesh wood frames, no-name SBQ, and an oven heating coil flash that some parasite supplier sold them talking about 5% dots is a world away.

[DouglasGrigar]

One thing you got wrong- panels are much more expensive, (just in terms of cost for them, not including labor and that) than bolt mesh.  I know, I just ordered another 30 of 'em with Murkami S mesh and I'm here to tell ya it would've been astronomically cheaper to buy the same amount of bolt mesh and use my existing locking strips. 

Have you measured that cost to actual mesh use per screen, when I did over a year ago it was about seven bucks...

I have not checked this again, and do not even know what current mesh prices are, have you checked?

Here is our mesh cost.

That is some inexpensive mesh, it does not compare oranges to oranges but it is very inexpensive mesh at that we would be far-off on price. Mesh at one time was one of the most expensive things in the shop outside of silver film. The changes shocking when I think of them.

I may well have to change my post when I get more data it may go up to - 10 bucks?

[DouglasGrigar]

But...anyone that says they can install bolt mesh faster than a panel though, they are straight up smoking crack.
 

I thought that myself.

[jsheridan]

I've been using bolt mesh since I made my first roller back in 1992.

It took me a few months to get the hang of it and I was making some great frames, then a nice one-on-one with Don Newman around 1994 and I was a master screen maker soon after. I could have a 156 23x31 in production in 2 days @ 35n all done by hand, one roller at a time. The old stretch and relax technique.

Fast forward to 2002.. I'm making a 60 mesh screen and pulling my hair out, I can't for the life of me get the darn thin locking strip in the channel and after 45 minutes of fussing I get the mesh in and stretched. The screen makes the run and then sits in the rack for 6 months till we use it again.

ISS Show Long Beach 2003... I stop by the Shur-loc booth and about piss my pants laughing as we talk about inserting low mesh counts into rollers. Jim shows my a 36 panel, pops it into the frame on display and rolls it to tension in less than 2 minutes. I buy 4 panels, all low mesh in the realization I can pop em in as needed and I only have to use a single frame to handle my low mesh needs.

2006
I buy 500 mesh panels to equip a new shop. With a Roller Master table and elevated quick tensioning techniques, screens are flying off the table at the rate of 10 per hour. We have all 500 frames rolled and racked in 6 days! It takes 3 months to work harden them all. 

2009
I watch a 'screen tech' lay a piece of mesh (more like some cheap ass Chinese filtration fabric) on a frame, not square, and start feeding locking strips in. Then rolls it w/out a tension meter, applies some packing tape to the rails and puts it into production to never be re-tensioned until it meets it's demise with a ripped edge a few months later. This is when I realize the other 750 frames were made the same way and all the floors printing problems suddenly have an answer. I mention shur-loc panels and are laughed out of the office when price comes up.

2011
My days are filled with 40" x 60" Diamond Chase box frames and bolt mesh. It sucks!.. it takes me 20 or more minutes just to put the mesh in, it's really a poor design as theres no way to hold the  mesh in place like the newman clips so you're constantly adjusting the locking strip and mesh to get it square. Then theirs the 28 bolts per frame that need to be turned to pull the bars... did I mention I have to use the old stretch and relax technique as the mesh is being pulled one-side-at-a-time uugggggg... I'd take a panel for this frame in a HEARTBEAT!!! They make the bars for the panels and shur-loc can make the panels, put then I've have to buy all new bars ($$$) and the hardware that goes with them ($$$) and then the mesh panels for a company (decal - flat stock) that is in no way ready or able to re-invest thousands of dollars to re-tool it's screen dept.

[Clark]

I saw a guy the other day in a shop up here install bolt mesh pretty darn fast.  Not as fast as a panel, but certainly fast enough to make it significantly cheaper than buying panels.  I think it just depends on how good you are at it.  I use panels, as they are just easier for me and faster.  But I think someone who has spent 10 years in a screen department at a major operation, could bring bolt mesh up to tension plenty fast enough for it to be a significant cost saver over panels.  No to mention you have a little more control over bolt mesh than you do panels.

[DouglasGrigar]

I saw a guy the other day in a shop up here install bolt mesh pretty darn fast.  Not as fast as a panel, but certainly fast enough to make it significantly cheaper than buying panels.  I think it just depends on how good you are at it.  I use panels, as they are just easier for me and faster.  But I think someone who has spent 10 years in a screen department at a major operation, could bring bolt mesh up to tension plenty fast enough for it to be a significant cost saver over panels.  No to mention you have a little more control over bolt mesh than you do panels.

No one is arguing that point, someone who has put in the time an pain to get very good is, well good - and has a skill.

Now turn to the new person and say “you need to spend the time to develop this skill” - how many hours of lost production are we looking at?

This ties into the “funny numbers” guys, who will talk about every second of production and pushing to get maximum per hour at an automatic - how many hours that could be on press are lost developing that skill?

Using the funny numbers they like to spew out all the time, how many panels will that pay for?

In the land of the blind the one-eyed man is king - traditionalism may work and may not, the point is to target the situation to max out the potential for that specific situation. For the one or few man shop developing this skill could be costly for production.

How about the idea of keeping the panels and removing them, replacing them with clean and going back to clean and reclaim the panels when time is slow in production? An act of simply delaying the process to fit within the schedule.

How quick is it to re-insert the cut mesh back into a frame?

I am the heretic just throwing ideas out there.

[Printficient]

I saw a guy the other day in a shop up here install bolt mesh pretty darn fast.  Not as fast as a panel, but certainly fast enough to make it significantly cheaper than buying panels.  I think it just depends on how good you are at it.  I use panels, as they are just easier for me and faster.  But I think someone who has spent 10 years in a screen department at a major operation, could bring bolt mesh up to tension plenty fast enough for it to be a significant cost saver over panels.  No to mention you have a little more control over bolt mesh than you do panels.

In thinking of this I came to the conclusion that if one does not pop many screens than the time to install panels over bolt mesh is a non sequitur. 
If one works at a shop that pops a lot of mesh then the cost savings of the bolt mesh is a no brainer.
The time factor here is in the initial installation of mesh.  When retightening the mesh there is very little difference between the two.
This is one of those things that the industry needs to educate (NOT sale) the end user on. 
While there is a very specific need for retens, the honest fact of the matter is they are not necessary to print high end art.
This industry needs to quit selling things and start sharing the basic thought processes to print any level of art on a shirt.
The only way to make it today is to cut costs.  You do not need a Corvette to go to the store.  If you want one and can justify the costs of one against your bottom line than by all means get one.  Just know that you can get to the store just as well on a bicycle.
OK Let me have it.   

[DouglasGrigar]

In thinking of this I came to the conclusion that if one does not pop many screens than the time to install panels over bolt mesh is a non sequitur. 
If one works at a shop that pops a lot of mesh then the cost savings of the bolt mesh is a no brainer.
The time factor here is in the initial installation of mesh.  When retightening the mesh there is very little difference between the two.
This is one of those things that the industry needs to educate (NOT sale) the end user on. 
While there is a very specific need for retens, the honest fact of the matter is they are not necessary to print high end art.
This industry needs to quit selling things and start sharing the basic thought processes to print any level of art on a shirt.
The only way to make it today is to cut costs.  You do not need a Corvette to go to the store.  If you want one and can justify the costs of one against your bottom line than by all means get one.  Just know that you can get to the store just as well on a bicycle.
OK Let me have it.   

I am on your side, I value new and creative over outdated traditionalism. Any choice made on facts and a clear understanding of the cost structure is a good choice.

An example, you could buy a bunch of used wood frames with mesh similar to a drunken co-ed on the Vegas strip and end up spending lots of production time lining up the job and then never getting it to line up (the mesh stretches out of registration). The choice of the cheap wood frames became a liability.

If a newbie chooses to use panels in his one man shop and then pull the panels rather than reclaim is that a bad choice? If that increases his print time when he is likely already up to his neck, if he includes the price in the job and knows his profit margin and cost structure - could anyone call that a bad choice?

I am just the heretic.