Rollers vs Statics, an idea.

[Mr Tees!!]

...Heres a thought I had: most of the statics we buy are manufactured in such a way, that they dont have the time to let them relax and get them to high tensions we all want. At the same time, roller frames are easily 2-3x the cost, and a pain to maintain.

...what I am think about doing is investing in a stretching table to restretch my own statics, but allowing the time to relax/retension the mesh. See, at my shop, we have a screen rip/separate roughly every two weeks or so (I have about 130 on hand) With a stretching table, I could stretch the mesh over the frame, let it relax for a day or so, tension it again, and so on. At the end of a week or so, just glue it on and go.

...Now I know that there is no possibility of work hardening in this method, and you lose that ultimate control. The super-duper high tensions just arent gonna happen, but I still think you could get much better results with this idea than you would with off-the-shelf-statics. Plus, your restretch cost would be much lower than having them sent out for restretch, with better results too. I dont see why you couldnt get one to settle in high 20's-low30's using this method, especially in the lower mesh counts.

...I have priced some pneumatic screen stretchers, and they are only a little higher than a Roller Table would be. But the difference seems minor compared to the expense of a comparable collection of rollerframes.

...one thing I have wondered about: would the screen glues be able to hold the mesh itself to the frames at higher tension? I havent done any research on glues yet.

...I guess I could find an old rollerframe that was larger than a static, stretch it nice and tight over a week or so, then glue one up and see what happens.

...anyone care to discuss/debate? anyone ever tried it?   

[ericheartsu]

we have a large static stretching machine here for of graphics stuff. it's ok, but here is the key point of all of this.

once you put the mesh on the static frames, thats it. no tightening, no nothing. so if the mesh gets worn down from a big job, or heavy use...it stays that way

[JBLUE]

I think that would be a waste of money on your part in my opinion. Higher tension screens are more delicate. Now you want to take a weeks time and make a delicate screen that will bust like a tight Newman? The money would be better spent on a Newman frame that you can have in production the next day after tearing it. No glue to sand off. No holding up the table waiting for the mesh to relax. No having to mix up adhesive and hope that it holds during a production run. Your weakest point is going to be that adhesive being able to hold the tension for any decent amount of time.

[Homer]

even though I am not sticking with roller frames, I believe you would be WAY farther ahead buying rollers, panels and a roller table.

by the way, Pocono screen stretches their screens exactly like you want to do, stage stretching.

[Mr Tees!!]

I think that would be a waste of money on your part in my opinion. Higher tension screens are more delicate. Now you want to take a weeks time and make a delicate screen that will bust like a tight Newman? The money would be better spent on a Newman frame that you can have in production the next day after tearing it. No glue to sand off. No holding up the table waiting for the mesh to relax. No having to mix up adhesive and hope that it holds during a production run. Your weakest point is going to be that adhesive being able to hold the tension for any decent amount of time.

...how is this any more cost effective? Now I have a $90 frame that wont stay in production.

...if a screen fails only once a week here anyway, where is the time loss? All i do is take a few seconds or so each day to add a bit more tension with the air regulators.

..now as for the mesh glue, yeah I agree that may be an issue. I just dont know if the glues have ever been tested in this way.

[ZooCity]

I believe that making your own stretch and glues is a false economy for most shops and certainly far more work than using one of the retensionable or at least "re-meshable" frame varieties out there.   And the floor space involved- sand blasting cab, stretcher and ventilation for that nasty glue...if we ever did this I would also sell frames as a side business to area shops otherwise I could never justify the space it would take up v. a roller master.  Do some math and revisit the concept of newmans, I'd rather learn to use roller frames in a shop than to re-stretch my own statics.  Could be different for you, but, if you can handle the concept of making a little screen shop inside your shop I know you can handle using roller frames and eliminate the problems you've had in the past. 

One thing I never see in this seemingly endless debate is the life cycle cost of statics.  Anyone compared costs with the shipping involved in remeshing statics?

Being in a state with no suppliers at all, I prefer a screen that I can restretch easily with mesh that I keep on hand.

I think statics are just fine, dandy in fact!  They are light, low-maintenance in production, no soft corners to pool up emulsion, they allow you to use "permanent tape" or nothing at all if you are savvy, they are durable and easy to recycle. But, I don't like where they settle in on tension and I don't like having to ship them all back and forth. 

Many shops make excellent, even award winning, prints with both types.  Different strokes.

[ScreenFoo]

I have some 86/100 I'm doing very long term testing on, but it'll be another year or two before I can report anything.   

I've mentioned this before, but I've stage tensioned Saati Hitech 125/70 mesh up to 40+ newtons onto statics--the glue doesn't come delaminated, but the frame bows, the mesh elongates, and the tension is down just over thirty within the first couple cycles, and seems to stabilize in the 25 range.

IMHO It makes for a superior static, but it's still pretty crappy compared to the easy 25-35 newtons I maintain for many cycles on an MZX roller, as well as being able to tweak it up a hair when it drops--not to mention being able to match any set of screens to the same tension for easy multicolor reg. 

I can't do it properly across threads but from the other thread Mr. Tees mentioned:

"First, removing the protective tape off the frames is a hassle, then geting the locking strips out cleanly amost never happened. Then, clean the frame, check and usually remove burrs from the channels. Finally you get to remesh the frame, and reapply the protective tape. There was just a lot of little hidden time/cost."

If you need to remove burrs from the channels, you just found out why those rollers were such a hassle--they're being mishandled.  If you hit a roller hard enough to put a burr in the channel, the mesh has no possibility of surviving that.  Also, if they are messy and it takes forever to clean the rollers and channels when it comes time to restretch, the reclaim personnel are not likely rinsing the chemicals, inks, and emulsion fully from the frame.  All of that stuff will get stuck under the mesh, and make the rollers bumpy, leading to more premature mesh failure. 

I do agree there's a lot of time/cost that gets glossed over with rollers, but at the same time I agree with Zoo on this: how much fun is pulling mesh, blasting/sanding, and dealing with glue?  Not picking sides, I do both--but I see the economy to either side...

[cclaud3]

I've been on the fence for a while regarding roller frames. But there is a local supply shop that has a trade in program. They bring the frames to me and I give them the "cores" back. No waiting on re-meshing.

It's just me so the big sell is NO reclaiming. I do keep the chemicals ready in case of a rare exposure mishap.I don't tape the ink side of the screens anymore.

I was efficient in reclaiming but who enjoys it? After doing the math for the number of screens I process it's worth the cost for my sanity and frees up 1 day a week for me to do anything else. I can double the cost of the screens and I'm still less on setup costs compared to some of the other shops in town.

Again, no reclaim, fresh mesh for each job, less chemicals, less tape. I would check and see if your local supply place does trade-ins.

[inkman996]

A way to pseudo work harden a static after you stage tension up to the max tension you want you then add a crap load of weight evenly across the mesh come back after a bit remove weight retention and glue.

[Mr Tees!!]

I have some 86/100 I'm doing very long term testing on, but it'll be another year or two before I can report anything.   

I've mentioned this before, but I've stage tensioned Saati Hitech 125/70 mesh up to 40+ newtons onto statics--the glue doesn't come delaminated, but the frame bows, the mesh elongates, and the tension is down just over thirty within the first couple cycles, and seems to stabilize in the 25 range.

IMHO It makes for a superior static, but it's still pretty crappy compared to the easy 25-35 newtons I maintain for many cycles on an MZX roller, as well as being able to tweak it up a hair when it drops--not to mention being able to match any set of screens to the same tension for easy multicolor reg. 

If you need to remove burrs from the channels, you just found out why those rollers were such a hassle--they're being mishandled.  If you hit a roller hard enough to put a burr in the channel, the mesh has no possibility of surviving that.  Also, if they are messy and it takes forever to clean the rollers and channels when it comes time to restretch, the reclaim personnel are not likely rinsing the chemicals, inks, and emulsion fully from the frame.  All of that stuff will get stuck under the mesh, and make the rollers bumpy, leading to more premature mesh failure. 

I do agree there's a lot of time/cost that gets glossed over with rollers, but at the same time I agree with Zoo on this: how much fun is pulling mesh, blasting/sanding, and dealing with glue?  Not picking sides, I do both--but I see the economy to either side...

...thanks for the unbiased response, Foo. I agree there is a downside to both. I had just never heard much about anyone trying this, or what the results might be. Your numbers provided here are helpful.

..concerning the burrs on the frames: The place I was managing at the time gave me no input on hiring, and there was a lot of turnover, if you know what I mean. By the time I got folks trained to handle screens carefully, they bailed and I had to start over. I know that sounds like a cop-out, but it really was a continual issue that probably soured me on these things to some extent.

...can I ask how exactly you stage tensioned the statics? Like over what period of time, how many retensions, etc?

[alan802]

I've thought about doing the same thing tees is talking about.  Offering a high quality static to those shops that want higher tension but can't justify the very high initial cost of rollers or shurlocs.  If a manufacturer could simply make a truly low-no elongation mesh then it would certainly be a lot easier.  I think you can do this, and it wouldn't take a week or really a day to get some great screens to work harden in the 25-30 range in my opinion. 

Right now I'm stretching Murakami smartmesh, Saati Hi-tech, newman roller mesh, accumesh, Sefar E, dynamesh and whatever manufacturer that Sonny sells (I don't think he's ever mentioned for some reason .  As I'm stretching, I'm stretching them past the manufacturer's recommended highest level and then locking them down.  I then measure the tension over the course of the next 24 hours or so and as many times as I remember.  I've got numbers on how much each mesh count and manufacturer's mesh is elongating after the initial stretch.  I'm doing all of this before it ever goes into production just to see which manu has the lowest elongation after first tension.  I understand that things could change drastically after the first run through production and the performance of one mesh may be much better after production where it was not good after first stretch, but I don't think that's going to happen.  I think the mesh that doesn't elongate in the beginning will also be the top performer after production runs.  I have been writing all this down and so far I've done about 5 different mesh counts and 3 different manus.  When I get back to the shop and do a few more screens then I'll post that info in a new thread.

I think the smartmesh s threads will be the best mesh for what mrtees is trying to do.  There lower tension levels will help tremendously and from the testing I've done recently, the higher tension mesh loses a higher percentage of it's tension after the first stretching.  I've taken newman roller mesh up to 60 and it's down to 45 within 2 hours.  I take 150/48 S thread smartmesh up to 32 and it is still at 29-30 in 2 hours.  I have also noticed the s threads don't lose as much tension after the first print run and I think it's due to several factors, low elongation obviously but then I think the lower amount of pressure needed to print with them helps out a lot.

As far as the delicate nature of the higher tension screens and thinner threads, I think if a screen can make it through a production run once, why not 100 times?  If you take care of it and handle them correctly, they simply will not spontaneously combust.  Out of the 50 or so screens we lost last year, I bet 95% of them were human related.  A few busted from a flood bar coming down too hard or crooked, and maybe a few were over-tensioned (guilty as charged), and there was a few that a foreign object was in the ink and wore a hole in the screen and causing it to split.  I've got 30+- newmans that have shurloc panels in them from 2010 still going strong yet I've had at least a dozen screens bust that were stretched in April and May.  I finally had a newman roller mesh screen bust last week.  It was the first one out of about 20 that I stretched in March and April.  It was definitely Rigo related.  He's the damn gorilla working for us that handles the screens like an animal.  I'm just waiting for someone else to come along to hire and move him back to the embroidery side so him mama can watch over him instead of me.  Sorry, that another problem for another day, and a thread of it's own perhaps.

I've also been trying a little different technique on the roller master that may or may not do anything but I'm doing it cause I can and it's easy.  But I'm taking the mesh up to high tension, then I'm flipping the air cylinders on and off 20-30 times allowing the rollers to roll down and the mesh to go to zero newtons then I'm flipping the switch back on and the rollers tighten the mesh back up to the high tension.  Sort of pulling a rubber band and letting it relax over and over.  Like I said, this may or may not do a damn thing, but it feels/seems like it would help to work the mesh a little bit and at the very least, not hurt anything by doing it.

I'm all in favor of someone trying to produce a high quality, mid/high tension static.  I think it's possible and depending on how you can do it, it could certainly be worth the time as long as you weren't taking a week to produce one screen. 

[ScreenFoo]

Alan:  I'll be interested in that thread.  I think you're on track with the S thread keeping tension the best, in a way, but from what I've seen it's much easier to retain low tension than high.  The other odd variable is trying to correlate the smaller thread diameter with diameters much larger and how they hold the same tensions--i.e. the 150/48 has a cross section of about 1800 microns squared, a 157/64's is about 3200 microns squared.  I know that when I stretch a 157 to 20-25 newtons, and retension it a couple times, it stays there.  When I push it to 30-40, I have to double or triple the number of retensions to get it stablize.  It would be interesting to put a thick and thin thread screen side by side with the same tension and see how they compare over a number of cycles, in tension loss and print characteristics as well.


Mr. Tees:
I don't take that as a cop-out at all--it's a reality.  I've had many screens pop in years before, but little screen breakage over the last year, attributed to relentless harassment of co-workers, and doing the reclaiming myself.  I realize if I were in the position many here are in, I would not have time to do all that work myself. 

Couldn't tell you exactly how I did it, but I pretty much tried to emulate a pneumatic setup--I'd guess I was somewhere around ten tensionings, and made it a 'when I have a minute' kind of thing over the course of a few weeks.  For a little reference, I've done the same thing with a few 157/64 screens, but it's Hitex (cheaper) and they are ending up a little lower, expected with the smaller threads.   I thought they would lose more tension, but perhaps it's not just marketing when they say the cheaper stuff is still good low elongation mesh.                                   

I have the first 125/70 frame I did that to on press right now--spot checking the tension it was at 26N, and I would guess it's been cycled around fifty times since I glued it.  I'd guess the 157's have only been cycled a couple dozen times at most, they'll probably settle down to 18-19--still a very useful tension, IMHO.

[Mr Tees!!]

...this is all useful info, thanks guys! I feel a little more encouraged to give this a shot, but maybe just using an oversized roller instead of springing for the pneumatic table just yet.

...actually, Foo, did you have a full-on screen stretcher that you did this on?

...also want to mention, that when I said i could do this over the course of a week, that was really just a realistic time-frame I could allow the mesh tension to get nice and high. Given, I may be able to get somewhere in less than a day too, but if I only need to stretch one a week, why not retension for the whole week, yknow?

[JBLUE]

I think that would be a waste of money on your part in my opinion. Higher tension screens are more delicate. Now you want to take a weeks time and make a delicate screen that will bust like a tight Newman? The money would be better spent on a Newman frame that you can have in production the next day after tearing it. No glue to sand off. No holding up the table waiting for the mesh to relax. No having to mix up adhesive and hope that it holds during a production run. Your weakest point is going to be that adhesive being able to hold the tension for any decent amount of time.

...how is this any more cost effective? Now I have a $90 frame that wont stay in production.


...if a screen fails only once a week here anyway, where is the time loss? All i do is take a few seconds or so each day to add a bit more tension with the air regulators.

..now as for the mesh glue, yeah I agree that may be an issue. I just dont know if the glues have ever been tested in this way.

If you tension the screens higher you are going to have more breakage so you have to address why they are popping them anyways at lower tensions. Before you drop 3 plus grand on a new stretcher that you only plan on stretching one screen a week on I would address that.

Let's say you have 5 break that week? On your schedule it would take five weeks to recover those and bring them back into production. Add up all the time it takes for someone to strip them out of glue and leftover mesh. Thats loss right there. Now you also need sanding disc, sander, and an area off in a corner to make that mess and then clean up that mess. That's more loss.

In the same time you spend cleaning off that glue you could have stretched a dozen rollers without a table. In less than 48 hours all those screens are back in production. Retension them again to a level that your guys can use and keep going.

You can get used Newmans from 17-25 bucks used usually with locking strips. Have your supply reps ask around. Getting over stock from bigger shops is where I get a lot of mine. Someone always has some for sale somewhere.

There are adhesives that will hold the mesh. You just have to go to Aerospace products but now your talking good money to get those types of adhesives. They are not cheap and are not available at your local supply shop or Home Depot.

I would do what you were talking about and experiment with a large roller. It can't hurt. We did some testing on some manual frames and they bowed a bit around 45 newtons which relaxed them in the centers ofmthe square tubes. That took overnight for them to flex. I used some epoxy from a buddy that's in Aerospace and it was about 20.00 bucks worth for two screens. The glue held though. It was also a b!tch to sand off by the way. After that I did not attempt it on a 23x31. 

[Prosperi-Tees]

I've been on the fence for a while regarding roller frames. But there is a local supply shop that has a trade in program. They bring the frames to me and I give them the "cores" back. No waiting on re-meshing.

It's just me so the big sell is NO reclaiming. I do keep the chemicals ready in case of a rare exposure mishap.I don't tape the ink side of the screens anymore.

I was efficient in reclaiming but who enjoys it? After doing the math for the number of screens I process it's worth the cost for my sanity and frees up 1 day a week for me to do anything else. I can double the cost of the screens and I'm still less on setup costs compared to some of the other shops in town.

Again, no reclaim, fresh mesh for each job, less chemicals, less tape. I would check and see if your local supply place does trade-ins.

I have been considering this as well but with the Panel Frames. I hate reclaim and as long as you charge for it you would never have to reclaim a thing. Figure 20 screens a week for a slow shop like us x $13 per mesh panel = $260 x 4 weeks = $1040 per month. Now is the 4 days of reclaiming per month plus cost of chemicals worth it? Maybe so if you can land more work to fill up the 4 days you saved from not reclaiming anymore.