OK I am game. This is for Bimmridder. Lets Talk DTS

[BorisB]

We are using Screen FTR-3050. We image films at 1500 dpi. For Transfers we are using 82dpi  for 4c.process transfers, and between 35 and 65 for different kind of other halftone transfers. We can expose and washout most dots of 82dpi 5% on 355 mesh.
With our DTS/CST unit we don't get equal quality at 65dpi or higher frequency. We can still improve, but i think we will not be able to match what we did before.  Our unit can print 1440x1440 dpi. But this still can't compare even to 1000dpi film from imagesetter.
If you fine tune exposure time, using top exposure unit, make  low Rz screen with high resolution emulsion, you beat all CTS units that textile printers can buy. Only super good DMD ($$$$$)  units can beat your screens.

[ZooCity]

Boris, that is really awesome information you're sharing.  This is the kind of stuff that is missed all the time in the discussions on technology like this.

Thanks!

[jesterapparel]

I have had a Kiwo I-Jet for four years. We are running one shift and doing up to 150 screens pretty easily. Our set up is one person images, exposes, develops, and tapes up screens. A good person can do all this plus coat screens. (OK we have a coating machine, so we can coat and image at the same time) I know three other shops that have the same brand machine, and they all feel the same as me....this machine alone has helped us grow. I have never experienced more than a few hours of down time, and that has been rare. Perhaps three times? Since we image a day ahead, even a little down time won't kill me. It may be  a strain, but it won't shut us down. As far as a bottle neck, I'd beg to differ. Imagine life without film. Everything is digital, stored on servers (and backed up of course) A few keystrokes and you have your files. I will go into much more detail later, but have to split for now. I will also search for a few articles on the subject. Throw your questions and opinions my way. I'll answer and respond as best I can.

I've seen it in action at Bimm Ridder.  It's a pretty sweet set-up.

[DouglasGrigar]

Something you may find interesting - the output from the Oyo product on a screen.

It is difficult to catch a snap from a microscope that will get the sides and show the depth.

This is the best I could do at 100 and 200 magnification to catch the layer and emulsion before exposing the stencil.

[blue moon]

Something you may find interesting - the output from the Oyo product on a screen.

It is difficult to catch a snap from a microscope that will get the sides and show the depth.

This is the best I could do at 100 and 200 magnification to catch the layer and emulsion before exposing the stencil.

do you know what size and lpi are those? They remind me of the AccuRIP dots I was getting before using Film Maker. Not as bad as the big ones in those pix, but very lumpy. I described them as "potatoes" and the ones from FM as blackberries. Neither were smooth like an imagesetter, but AR's were pretty lumpy. . .

is that wax? What are the lines going through the dots? Was the head scraping across?

[squeegee]

I'm guessing those lines are the ridges/knuckles of the mesh that the light is reflecting off of.

[DouglasGrigar]

Something you may find interesting - the output from the Oyo product on a screen.

It is difficult to catch a snap from a microscope that will get the sides and show the depth.

This is the best I could do at 100 and 200 magnification to catch the layer and emulsion before exposing the stencil.

do you know what size and lpi are those? They remind me of the AccuRIP dots I was getting before using Film Maker. Not as bad as the big ones in those pix, but very lumpy. I described them as "potatoes" and the ones from FM as blackberries. Neither were smooth like an imagesetter, but AR's were pretty lumpy. . .

is that wax? What are the lines going through the dots? Was the head scraping across?

I did not print that, it was from Oyo at a show I would bet it is 55 to 65 lpi

It is a wax thermal transfer.

No head scraping, the wax in on sheets on a roll and the head goes over the wax not the emulsion.

No inkjet or thermal will ever get the dots a 2000 plus silver film imagesetter can get.

The benefits of DTS are speed and lack of positive material - including faster exposure because the glass is not blocking some of the UV.

The Oyo is very, very fast - it will lay down that wax in less than half the time an inkjet would take.

[DouglasGrigar]

I'm guessing those lines are the ridges/knuckles of the mesh that the light is reflecting off of.

Hard to identify for sure but I think you are correct - it is possible it is the thermal grid.

Very fast to print.

[BorisB]

Oyo's Diablo was very, very fast, cheaper to buy than I-jet or our C-S-T unit and quality was better.

But,  at the time when I was getting their information,  price for square meter of ribbon was 10$. And it always runs full width no matter if your image is just long thin line of text along moving direction. When I calculated, price of ribbon per screen was double our silver film price.
Printhead should last 3-5 years. It better does, because it was 8500$ when I asked.
From what i read and i don't remember where, they are very sensitive regarding air humidity. But that remains unconfirmed from Mark.

He setup a blog, which is mostly inactive.
http://oyoblogger.blogspot.com/

[inkbrigade]

Oyo's Diablo was very, very fast, cheaper to buy than I-jet or our C-S-T unit and quality was better.

But,  at the time when I was getting their information,  price for square meter of ribbon was 10$. And it always runs full width no matter if your image is just long thin line of text along moving direction. When I calculated, price of ribbon per screen was double our silver film price.
Printhead should last 3-5 years. It better does, because it was 8500$ when I asked.
From what i read and i don't remember where, they are very sensitive regarding air humidity. But that remains unconfirmed from Mark.

He setup a blog, which is mostly inactive.
http://oyoblogger.blogspot.com/

Ok just so i'm clear on what you said. You think the Diablo is faster and higher quality than the Kiwo i-Jet? What is the unit you have?  Thanks!

[BorisB]

I believe so. But  I have seen them on tradeshows only not in shops. I looked at their prints with magnifiying glass.

I need to be able to print screens in max  size 120x80 cm.  What we have is this:
http://www.kopimask.com/productos/TDS%20CST%20DTS%20INKJET%20ENGRAVER%20%28in%29.pdf

Producer is german Company CST gmbH  www.c-s.t.eu. Yes I know they don't believe in power of Internet. 

They manufacture machines  using all three available technologies, and most  likely they made most installations. More than 200 by the time I was in their factory.

[bimmridder]

OK, I'll start with a few things and see where this goes. I will not get into a pissing match about companies or products. I know my machine pretty well, but not others. We bought our Kiwo I-Jet when we were getting close to 100 screens a day. I think even 75 a day would be worth looking at CTS. We run everything on 23X31 Newman M3 frames, so the machine stays the same. (No changing drums) Imaging obviously depend on the size of the image. Most of out stuff will take between 30 and 120 seconds to image. I can do some dead nuts timing if anyone wants me to. The cost per screen to image is between eight and twenty five cents. This is my second machine. (The first was destroyed in a flood)  We've been running an I-jet for almost exactly 4 1/2 years right now. I haven't had a head go, but I know it will. At $5,000, that's a hefty expense. But we built that in to the ROI, figuring one head per year to be on the safe side. I do have a new head sitting in my office so when the one on the machine goes, I can be up and running in an hour. We make our screens a day ahead of production, so if I do have a problem with the machine. I still have a day to fix it. Question for you all. Everyone says, "when it breaks down, you're screwed." Isn't that the same with a vacuum table, exposure lamp, press, or dryer? Just saying, it's a machine like every other one in your shop. I keep some basic parts and the head on hand to cover as h of my ass as I can. While we don't do some of the crazy good process work Pierre and some others here do, we do a little. We print 65 line. I can hold and print a 3-4% dot. I find that very acceptable, so I haven't pushed for anything higher. Someday when I have some time to play, I will. The machine has a Harlequin RIP. You guys can tell me more about that than I can tell you. I do know we adjusted things on installation so that we were printing a particular dot size called for by the art department.   (were they adjusting curves?)  I'll leave it at this point for now. If you want more, just ask. I don't sell the thing, I just use it so I'll be honest and up front about everything.

[DouglasGrigar]

OK, I'll start with a few things and see where this goes. I will not get into a pissing match about companies or products. I know my machine pretty well, but not others.

I don’t think anyone is saying the I-jet is a bad machine, in fact I think it is a reasonable choice I just happen to have photos of the other machine, I have yet been able to get micro photos of the I-jet output - the shops I deal with are almost all newbies and upgrades where DTS is not an option. I have yet to come across one in the wild with a client’s shop.

Far removed that I would be in a position to say anything bad about DTS - it may well be our "saving grace” in the near future (industry speaking).

[alan802]

I want a DTS so bad.  I've seen most of them in person but none of them were operating except the Kiwo I-jet II.  I saw the Douthitt online and then thought to myself that it looks really familiar and then found a video of the original Kiwo I-jet and they look identical.  Does anyone know the deal with the Kiwo and Douthitt?  If we decided to go with the Douthitt, would we simply be buying the old, maybe outdated/under performing original Kiwo that they've moved on from?

[blue moon]

I on the other hand have heard that the Kiwo is the unit to have albeit at a little more money then the rest.  Also some of the math was showing the CTS to be effective at as little as 20 screens per day if set up right.

as far as buying a used one, it would be like buying a used auto. For a first time around, there are waaay to many high precision moving parts to start with a used one. I know I am pretty close to 20 screens per day and I don't think the savings are here yet. As a new shop, we are still to disorganized to benefit from something like it. My guess, 40-50 screens (per day) will be the number for us.