P.C. Systems

[Inkworks]

Okay, getting time to bring in a good Pigment Concentrate system. I've used Wilflex and Union ink before, any others to shop? I need Pantone recipes and good wet on wet ink bases. I'm leaning towards Wilflex but I thought I'd ask the question here as so many of you have great input. I really like the QCM WOW inks, but I haven't even looked to see if they have a good PC system with Pantone recipes.

cheers,
Jon

[Frog]

I used to use the Wilflex PC system, but went with the colored ink Mixopake from Union some years back for a few reasons.
1 At the time, there were not a lot of choices for opaque inks, and since I specialize in short runs, I usually printed p/f/p through a 110 back then.
2. I used Union Ultrasoft and Maxopaque, and this system allowed formula matches to those stock colors
3. I sometimes mix tiny amounts of ink (100-200 grams) and even with complete inks it gets tough. With pigments, it's sometimes near impossible.

That said, I recently had trouble getting a color or two, probably due to CPSIA re-formulation. I don't know if the old and new will be interchangeable, I haven't talked to a Union tech in a while.
To get me through a jam a few weeks bak, Sean at East Bay gave me a couple of formulas and a few bottles of pigment, and I did real well with his PC stuff, reminding myself of how I used to like it .

I took a look at what it would take to get some again, and I almost peed my pants when that first place I looked had only gallons. Fifteen gallons at about $130 each is quite a commitment to a system! Back when I had it fifteen or more years ago, I had pints. I have no idea what sizes it is now available in.

[Colin]

There are 3 types of systems available: Ready for Use (RFU), Pigments, and Color Boosters/Equalizers.

RFU systems are finished inks that can be printed and cured on their own.  They have a wide latitude of forgiveness for weighing in components for pms mixes.  They come in moderate opacity ink systems and high opacity mix systems.

Pigment systems are simply pigments dispersed in a plastisizer and will not cure by themselves.  It is the most versatile type of mixing system, also the easiest to make a big mistake when weighing out pigments for pms colors.  These are added to bases only.

Color Boosters/Equalizers are extremely concentrated almost curable inks (they "say" it's curable) that are meant to be used as a more forgiving form of pigments.  It's easier to weigh out the amount of pigment/colorant needed for each formula than pigment systems.  Boosters/Equalizers are meant to be added to bases for pms mixes and/or RFU mixing systems to boost opacity.

QCM has a ready for use system.  High opacity only with different formulas for color accuracy on white shirts and on white base plates.  Most formulas include a clear ink.

Wilflex has RFU, Pigment, and Equalizers.

Rutland has an RFU and Color Boosters.

International Coatings has an RFU system and Color Boosters.

Union has two RFU systems, one being for high opacity the other for wet-on-wet.

You should be able to get pint mixing systems from each of these companies, ask your distributors.  However, as distributors do, they may not keep it in stock or "offer it".  But they are available.  Profit margin is lower 

The first question is.  How much versatility do you need?

[Frog]

You should be able to get pint mixing systems from each of these companies, ask your distributors.  However, as distributors do, they may not keep it in stock or "offer it".  But they are available.  Profit margin is lower 

I would think that profit margin is way higher, just merely less profit due to a smaller sale.

[JBLUE]

We have both Wilflex and Rutlands PC systems. We are currently testing the system from rutland to see if we want to make the switch. So far Rutland has been beating out Wilflex on colors that mechanically break down and shift during a run. We have a few more jobs with some of the problem colors coming up so I will let you know on the results.

[Inkworks]

How much versatility do I need? good question, Right now mixing Pantone colours would do, with a few custom colours now and then for some of our fussy index colour customers.

Not much need for custom fluorescent or metallic as of yet, out-of-the-can should work for those.

mostly I'm interested in really good wet-on-wet bases and half tone bases and QCM has been keeping me happy, but I'm mixing pantone colours by eye from pre-mixed QCM WOW inks, and re-inventing the wheel every time we need a new PMS colour really gets old fast.

[JBLUE]

I will say that Rutlands system has been more accurate than Wilflex as far as that goes. We are testing their C3 system now. Its an expensive switch because they only want to sell the pigments in gallons after the initial qt mixing system is purchased.

[Frog]

and like I said, gallons of pigment concentrate is a lot of pigment concentrate!

[ZooCity]

Gallons of p.c. is way too much for most shops.  WFX sells by the qt which is about right.  You will tear through gallons of basic yellow, white, etc. over time but I would avoid having to purchase that qty of pigment like the plague.  Maybe a supplier would break it down to qt size for you?

Epic PC from WFX lets you mix the low-cure performance base inks, making it probably the most versatile plastisol system on the market if that's what you're going for.

In a perfect world- nothing but stock colors, out of the bucket or slightly modified and a great WOW system for sim pro mixes.

Back here in the real world... you often wind up needing half a pint of pale green ink to print on bike jerseys and, at the moment, having the Epic PC system in your shop would be the only way to do something like this.  I like to be prepared for everything because we will undoubtedly get everything thrown at us. 

[Inkworks]

Hmmm, having the ability to mix low-cure would be nice for Polyesters and non-woven bags, both of which we do, although I have had good success just using nylon additive on non-woven bags, but then you have to contend with a pot-life of the ink.

Does the epic PC base mix for all of the Wilflex base inks, or just the "Epic" line?

[ZooCity]

Hmmm, having the ability to mix low-cure would be nice for Polyesters and non-woven bags, both of which we do, although I have had good success just using nylon additive on non-woven bags, but then you have to contend with a pot-life of the ink.

Does the epic PC base mix for all of the Wilflex base inks, or just the "Epic" line?

They will all be Epic soon, so far as I understand it.  All the bases in the 'classic' line are there in the Epic I believe or they can be made from a combo of those inks.  The benefit here is that whatever plastisol base WFX comes up with, you can run it with your PCs which is not the case with any of their other systems.  We use:  Regular, Extender, Performance, Fashion Soft, Soft Hand Clear, Stretch, NuPuff. 

Regular base is essentially a 'middle of the road' base that works fine for WOW and had good body and opacity.  Soft Hand Clear is often cut into the base mix for soft hand without losing the pigment load, it is very similar to QCM Softee.  Extender does just that- extends the regular without affecting the rheology.  Fashion soft is apparently meant to imitate wb, just skip it and run wb instead athough it's handy here and there. The stretch...meh, it smells bad and I preferred the stretch additive from QCM but with a base/pc you can achieve much higher opacity for these inks.   Performance smells like those chemicals in an old school barber shop and is a b to print with but does indeed perform on the poly.  Puff we have yet to use. 

I want to add:  Particle Base + various particles, Halftone Base (hoping for excellent WOW with this) to our quiver. 

I think there's more advanced ink out there than WFX but, at the end of the day, it's plastisol and it prints and feels like most of the rest.  The difference is that WFX has been dead nuts on it with consistency from my experience and I'll sacrifice the latest in ink advancements for that stability.  They also have a very advanced IMS, though it's a little behind the times- windows based, clunky navigation -I've yet to dig into it fully.   P.S.- WFX book recipes are close to worthless with the PC system, you need the IMS for formulas. 

[Inkworks]

Good info!

I've worked with the Wilflex PC's before and know for smaller batches of ink it's helpful to have a scale that goes down to .01grams.... not so much that you need to weigh .01grams, but more you need to know if that .1grams is really .06 or .14grams.

My customers are not like they were in the big city where some would actually measure the colours, but I still want to be pickier in the shop than they are as that makes for less complaints.

For me the QCM dealer is the closest with supplies an hour away by car and same-day by bus or courier, Wilflex dealer is a 10 hour drive, but they do a great job of next-day for us out here if we get an order in early in the day. International Coatings Dealer is 4 hours away and very reliably over-night.

QCM is generally the best pricing from what I've seen, then Wilflex, with International Coatings being the most expensive..... The Wilflex dealer puts a little bag of cookies in their ink shipments, a great moral booster at the shop 

Right now I'm using 90% QCM and I've been happy. I started out with the XOLB on the manual, but now with the Auto we're switching over to almost all WOW, I don't mind using WOW on the manual when we have to and I can get the opacity/coverage when we need it without too much problem.

We just did a big (for us) run of poly shirts, and thanks in no small part to reading here on the forum, I ponied up for Wilflex Underbase grey and MVP White and Red for top-coat on the black shirts as I didn't have time for anything to go wrong on me, even the local QCM supplier thought Wilflex was a safe bet for this job. At the last shop we used Wilflex inks and the PC mixing system and had no issues with it, when they brought the TAS auto in there the supplier they bought it from gave them a International Coatings mixing system to try, my only beef with it was many of the mixes came out almost too watery and were a bit of bitch to use on a manual, mind you we really didn't mess around with different bases or additives.

I'd say I'm split between the Wilflex and QCM right now. I'd like the Wilflex as a true P.C. system, and it seems to have a wider range of mixing bases to play with. I'd like the QCM as I already have a rack full of it and it's been good so far, it's also the nearest supplier, and he's earned my loyalty to a  certain degree. I guess I'll have to crunch some numbers, although it's tough to compare a true P.C. to a RFU system. QCM is also a 12 color (plus 7 fluorescent) system vs. Wilflex being a 15 color system (22colors in their kit though?).

[ZooCity]

The Wilflex dealer puts a little bag of cookies in their ink shipments, a great moral booster at the shop 

mmmm...you could dip 'em in some quick white.