White Ink Inquiry for 50/50's

[ScreenPrinter123]

So, I spoke with a Union rep about a year ago regarding this and he told me "No, you have to use 50/50 white ink."  He gave me the what, but not really a convincing why.  If anyone can affirm or negate the Union rep and explain why, I'd greatly appreciate it.

I asked him, assume you have a 50/50 shirt and a print that requires a white underbase WITH NO WHITE SHOWING -- ONLY TOP COLORS will show -- could you not just use a white that is made for 100% cottons with no bleed resistance?  So let's say you have a 50/50 carolina blue and you want to drop a standard royal and red ink on the shirt.  There's no problem with that, I said (if dye migration happens, it's not terribly noticeable if at all).  So why should there be any problem if I have a 50/50 black shirt and put a 100% cotton white ink underbase (AGAIN, NO WHITE WILL BE SHOWING) and a royal and red ink on top of the white underbase?  He said no, that's not wise -- I said why -- and then I got the, "That ink is made for 100% cotton, not 50/50's," which brought us back to the initial point as to why regular plus inks (in the union brand) can be dropped on 50/50's, but not on top of 100% cotton white inks that are on 50/50's.  If dye migration isn't going to present a problem when the red and royal are sitting on the 50/50, why all of a sudden will dye migration happen when they're sitting on the 100% cotton white that's on the 50/50?  Was was I just being told hogwash to make sure he covered his basis and I wouldn't come back complaining about dye migration, or does the interaction of 100% cotton on a 50/50 shirt magically create a dye migration issue for top colors?

[ZooCity]

Everyone should have a low-bleed white for 50/50s in the house.  If you do a ton of prints on 100% cotton then you could use a more affordable 'cotton white'.  We use a single white, Epic Quick for it all (except 100% poly).  Why?  Because it's the exact same white ink every time and we know how it behaves, what it's limitations are how the final print is going to look and feel.  Worth every penny to me. 

That said, I'll reiterate that a cotton white makes sense for large production on 100% cotton where it can be used appropriately.  Cheaping out and using cotton whites on blends might work...and it might not.  No reason you can't do it but I can't think of a single reason why you would. 

[ScreenPrinter123]

Zoo,

I'm in complete agreement that for when the white is showing one should use a 50/50 white on a 50/50 shirt (or perhaps even mixing some poly white in the 50/50).  My question, however, pertains to why would you even need a 50/50 white ink if no white is showing when laying a white underbase?  If a royal or a navy or a purple, etc. is fine to lay on a 50/50 shirt with no qualms, why couldn't you just as well drop a 100% cotton white ink on a 50/50 as an underbase with the royal or navy or purple, etc. on top if no white is going to show? 

My experience, since 50/50 inks puff up a bit to help with the dye migration, is that the 100% lies flatter as an underbase after a flash - so that's one plus for a 100% cotton white ink in my estimation.

Again, I completely concede the point if white is showing that a 50/50 ink should be used on a 50/50, but that's not my point.  I don't see any reason why one couldn't use the 100% cotton white ink when none of that white is going to show -- unless someone can explain it to me otherwise -- which there may very well be a good reason.... which is what I'm asking for if there is one.....

[alan802]

Dye migration can shift the top colors quite dramatically in some cases.  We printed some navy 50/50 with a regular, no bleed resistant white underbase with maxopaque golden yellow on top of the UB, and within a few days the golden yellow had turned this awful dark yellow/brown color.  There had been times before this where we did the same thing with different top colors but the same UB and nothing happened.  But after that 700 dollar mistake with the golden yellow print, I don't chance it and if it has poly in it, I go with either a proven low bleed white like QCM 159 or Triangle Phoenix for those shirt colors that don't bleed that bad, and for reds, blues and greens I'll use our mixture of wilflex UB grey and 159 to UB with.  Now for 100% poly, I use the wilflex UB grey mixed with enough low bleed white to get it to print ok which is usually about 20% LB white and 80% wilflex UB grey.  I don't plan on ever having to replace shirts due to bleeding ever again.

[cclaud3]

Yes, recently, I've actually setup a job with Union Cotton White U/B with 4 top colors intended for 100% cotton shirts. I used some 50/50s as I had more of those as test shirts. They migrated horribly. I use Union Diamond white on 50/50s.

[JBLUE]

I have seen a few prints come in where the dye has migrated into the top colors. I have not had it happen to us because we use the right ink for the job. Its not worth eating an order to save a few bucks. One of these days we will see it I am sure with some of the crappy dye makes its rounds through cost cutting manufacturers.

There is a pretty good thread around here somewhere that explained dye migration. I just cant remember where it was but here is an article from IC so I dont have to type it all out.

http://internationalcoatings.wordpress.com/2011/07/11/understanding-polyester-printing-and-dye-migration/

[Prosperi-Tees]

I have actually never used a cotton white. Is it better to print with on 100% cotton? Is this considered thread jacking?

[ScreenPrinter123]

Thanks for the posts.  At least some people can say it's happened in practice. 

[Nation03]

When you underbase with the wilflex grey, do the over print colors pop just as they would with a standard white underbase?

[alan802]

When you underbase with the wilflex grey, do the over print colors pop just as they would with a standard white underbase?

On most occasions they do.  There have been a few instances where there was a slight color shift and some loss of opacity but I think that had more to do with poor mesh selection than it did the ink.

[tonypep]

Having a huge dye lot migration shift as we speak with AA neon orange tanks. Looks like I can stabilize with.......
believe it or not a DC base. Then a polywhite on top. Straight poly is a fail; I tried all the usual suspects.

[mk162]

tony, what are the tanks made of?  I am running those all this week.

[tonypep]

50/50......these neons don't bleed they hemmorage. So far a 50/50 white/base DC seem to stabilize the migration enough to overprint with a white poly. These are white prints solid vector graphics.

[mk162]

I'll have to see what I've been printing.  I have about 1,000 of them to do this week.

[Frog]

fortunately, most neons are cotton