The late 90s M&R all-air Gauntlet S - opinions?

[ZooCity]

I'm considering a `97 Gauntlet S.  All options, all air.  Serviced by M&R techs only, single owner.  Sounds like as fine a specimen of this machine as you might find.

So condition not being a large concern ( I do need to check on impression count, though I hear these units go forever), what are your opinions on the trusty old Gauntlet? 

I have no delusions of grandeur even though this is our first textile auto and don't expect the machine to setup as easily or have the options of newer models and can fully embrace it's limitations.  Even the most primitive of automatics will help me through 70-80% of my workload and be a worthwhile investment given that I have the space and capacity. 

My concerns right now are:

• Screen size.  My man tells me it can run 25"x30" M3s, our current stock size, but not 36" length.  Confirmation on this?  And why exactly is this the case?  Not enough screen holder adjustment room?  I want to run 36" long not for increased image area, 16x18 is fine, but rather to have lead in/out for the squeegee and flood and room for the ink well.
• M&R/"x-y"micros.  I think they suck. I've rebuilt and re-set them on a Chameleon myself and doing this confirmed my opinion. Just not a smart design.  Are they manageable on the autos or even more of a problem?
• Parts and service?  Not expecting a problem here of course but there's always those little things that are no longer being made by anyone.  This is a 15yo machine after all.
• Range of squeegee/flood pressure adjustment- I have almost nothing but S mesh in the house and want to keep it that way.  It requires comparatively light, perfectly even fill and stroke pressure.  Any machine I bring in needs to be capable of this.

I know that MK, Tony P and Homer have or have ran these machines as well as others on here so I'd love to hear your sage advice if you're willing to lend it.

Thanks in advance and I hope this thread can become a nice tome of info on these old standby's for others. 

[bimmridder]

I sold my Gauntlet S about 5 years ago. I believe it was a '98. I still get to visit my baby, as I do PM and other service on the machine. It's about an hour and a half from me. I never would have sold it, but our market demands higher colors than this press could do. I know this machine is still running every day. My main concerns would be , are you still able to bet the Bimba cylinders for the print/flood stroke. I know my friend has got them within the last year or two.

I really wish I had a use for that press. The damn thing ran to beat hell.

I probably didn't answer your questions. If I had a need for a press that size, I'd grab that thing up, almost sight unseen.  I miss my baby.

[Homer]

no matter what you do -pay for a real tech to install it. . .

the micros blow. . you'll need a reg unit. . .

air locks - you will need to upgrade to the bar newman style or use the damn shims like we do.

set up time is slow due to the manual clamps, not air - although I don't know this machine -maybe a '97 model has air clamps.

Squeegie/ flood regulators -we have the old school knob style, PITA>

I don't know zoo, I don't think you will be 100 % satisfied with it - We are keeping ours because we need it, it's paid for, I won't get anything for it but I can not wait to get a new machine. . .I'll freakin sleep with it. . .I'd buy new - avoid the down time from break downs. . .that's just my opinion from running mine. . .or buy a refurb from CGS. . .

Oh and parts- don't worry about that, you can make almost anything on these old air machines, or get it from grainger.

[Sbrem]

We run a '94 6/8. It needs maintenance once a year, about $1200 last year, but it runs and runs well. It's not our main machine (MHM 10/12) but it does an excellent job. How much cake do they want? And what Homer says, get a real tech, with a Z-bar, to set it up for you, it's well worth it.

Steve

[alan802]

Well, if Dave says it's a good machine then I'd bet anything that it is. 

I know it's your first auto, and there are many things that aren't concerns to you as far as some features and options like servo and AC heads.  BUT, I know your level of commitment to the quality of your work, and I just know that there are going to be things that will eat you up with those air print heads.  Your shop is probably one of, if not the top manual shop as far as quality goes and I personally think that you are going to want ALL the control that you can get and some of those features that you may be willing to overlook will give you that control that you are used to having.  The air indexer is not going to affect the print quality at all, but I do believe that the air print heads are harder to get the quality of ink deposit that AC heads give you.  I'm not saying you can't get a print that is just as good with an air head as an AC head, but I do think you can do more in much less time and the limitations won't be there.  The quality likely won't suffer to the average printer's eye, but just knowing you Zoo, I think you're gonna want AC print heads.

Just my thoughts Zoo, I think to the average shop that all air press would be a fantastic starter auto, but you've surpassed average a long time ago and I'd suggest holding out for an AC print head machine. 

[ZooCity]

Bimba cylinders - this unit has, what my guy has referred to as the large choppers.  Are these the Bimba's?  I don't see a major issue with replacing them all with something more modern if the machine's price is right. 

Homer- this S model has every option available at the time from my understanding, including screen frame locks.  By shims do you mean the Newman clamp adapters?  I have a set of those and we run the pin-lock as well.  To clarify, I don't expect to be wowed by a 15 year old machine, no matter how well it was kept or how good the price.  I expect to have a machine that can reliably crank prints out 4-6 times faster than I can with a similar amount of setup time.  And also a press that I can setup and easily teach someone to run for me while I tend to other work.  If I was looking for 100% satisfaction I'd be leasing an MHM. 

This would only be installed by an M&R tech, I wouldn't consider any other route.  Full parts warranty from the seller.  My singular concern would be having to pay to keep the tech around for an extra day or three to wait for any needed parts to arrive and then install them, presuming if I couldn't myself.  It's a single-owner machine only serviced by M&R so I see little issue overall in this department.

So far we have a big vote for the S from bimmridder and a sort of thumbs down from Homer.  The picture I'm forming here is that they run like champs but are lacking features to make setup and adjustments easy and may be limited in what can be adjusted overall.  I'm ok with that, we still would have the manual when needed.  I'm not ok with fighting the press on every setup so to speak.  I had a little bit of that with the Chameleon, mostly due to it's off contact feature and those damn x-y micros jumping out of reg when locking after adjustments and often during print runs.  If the old S has similar issues, that is a deal breaker for me. 

What did you love about the S specifically?

What do you hate about it?

[ZooCity]

Alan, jeez you're making me blush over here.

That is some serious food for thought on the AC heads.  It was in the back of my mind as a potential issue. Logic tells me that I can make it work with extreme diligence on the maintenance and overall setup but I agree, AC would be so, so much easier just going off the simple physics of it all. 

[mk162]

I have a 99.  It's a good press.  Not great, not bad, but good.  I would take this press any day over manual printing.

I used to use aero-inc for parts, he sold to seritech, there is a link to the old site:
http://aero-inc.com/
M&R also sells a lot of parts on their site.

The choppers are easy to source.  Put the 1" on the squeegee and 3/4" on the flood

Change out the stroke shocks with the rubber grommet-type that aero sells.

31" screens fit fine, I don't think a 36" will fit.

Change the block of MAC valves, there should be 8 if it's a 6 color press.

Is the price pretty good?  I would jump on it personally if it's a good price.  It's a great starter auto.

[RICK STEFANICK]

If the price is in the 8k-9k range with a flash jump on it immediatly. those machines print excellent and parts are readily available from m&r. as far as set-up times...WELL, COME ON YOUR MANUALLY PRINTING. These presses set-up fast and tear down fast. set up  properly with a m/r tech those babys run a smooth 700 hr. plus and are VERY dependable.Standard screen size is 23x31.I'M guessing it has air locks and central off contact if its a 98', both great features.I wouldnt worry about the number of impressions. as you said its been well serviced by certified m/r techs..

[ZooCity]

@MK - what's preventing a 36" long frame from going in there exactly?  I'm actually working with Bill Foust on it so the warranty parts would be from that Aero stock. 

@RStefanick - I laughed out loud at the caps statement.  That's a good point there.  This press has all the options available in '97 so yes, central O.C., rear stroke adjustment, no shirt detector, etc.

Do either of you bump into limitations with the air heads?  I print on a wide variety of substrates and need serious control of the flood and print strokes to manage this.  I use what is probably exceedingly light print pressure and full-on fill strokes.  After Alan brought it up it's my main concern.  The central o.c. and general integrity of the machine with proper setup and maintenance will help me compensate for enough but without a perfectly even, light stroke and the ability to hard flood I'm not going to be able to make enough use of the machine.  For plastisol I'll likely use a squeegee as the flood bar a' la the Dr.J from Joe Clarke on at least a few heads every run.  I'm anal about this stuff. 

The price is about double what you are throwing out there and yes, comes with flash though I already have a red chili 20x24 at the new shop.  The unit sounds like it is in such ridiculously pristine condition that it justifies a higher price but I'm not sure what's too high here.

Still mulling and very thankful for all the feedback. 

[ZooCity]

the micros blow. . you'll need a reg unit. . .

Homer when you say this do you mean you have to use a reg unit and hit it dead on upon clamping? 

I'm guessing these micros jump your reg when you lock down after making any adjustments.  I still don't get why they use that design.  The press I'm printing with currently has the ability to make a true linear adjustment along the x axis which is typically how my screens are out when using the Pin-Lock.  This design has it's flaws still as it can screw up your o.c. after an adjustment on occasion but I've saved probably a few hours a week, no joke, by getting x-y style micros out of the shop, not too keen on bringing them back in there. 

[mk162]

the micros aren't great, but you know what?  It's still better than manually printing.  As long as you know how to work them, you are fine.  I can make most adjustments in 1 or 2 tries.

The holders are front and back holders, you can't move the back ones back far enough to get an extra 4".  You might be able to, but you only have a 17" stroke, so why would you need a longer frame?  I would go standard size and rock it.

The air heads are fine.  If they were that bad, if they were they wouldn't get used.

To be honest, there isn't much to mull.  If you get it at a good price, buy it, it will save you time and money.  Keep the manual for the jobs that won't be run on the auto.  You won't use the manual much though, I promise.

You will print faster, more consistently, and with less effort than before.

It's the difference between a bike and a car.

[californiadreamin]

Great Little Machine!
I have seen some beautifull printing done on these machine!
Best Bang for the Buck on Any Used Machine!
It will get you automated, and you will get a good ROI. (cash cow)
Easy to work on,good parts availability.
Dependable!
Bill Foust is a Good Person to buy from. He has integrety!

Winston

[tonypep]

A well maintained press of this make and model will serve you well. The micros work fine if they haven't been abused and I would keep an extra Bimba (or Tolematic) around and maybe a safety cord and some prox switches. That said Bill usually has these in stock. Air indexers require a little care and maintenance, especially when switching platens as you have to find the sweet spot combo of index speed, de-cell and shock. BE SURE THE TECH SHOWS YOU THIS! Theres more but I have to go. If you research it and stick with someone like Bill it should make enough money to finance an upgrade in a relatively short period of time. Sure the newer machines are awesome but those little guys can be quite the profit center. And don't think you can't produce first rate quality, many an award has been one on these. It's often more about the pre-press engineering than the brand of press.

[alan802]

Sorry that I've thrown a wrench into the decision, but a few weeks ago I went to a shop to help them set a tough job up and I struggled with the air heads.  I'm not used to them so that's the main reason, but I did have to add a good bit of pressure on the thicker inks where the squeegee stroke was jumping a little.  The only experience I have with air print heads is when I go into another shop and I am so used to AC that it's frustrating for me, but honestly I always get the results I'm looking for, more or less.  It just takes me a lot longer to get the end result but I know if I had to do it every day, I'd master it and be able to deal with any shortcomings.  You still get the downward pressure but the inconsistent speed and finer line art and thicker inks play a bigger role in the overall scheme of things, and those variables are not an issue so much on an AC head machine.  Because you are who you are, I have no doubt that you'll get the results you're looking for and when you do get the next auto, you can opt for the AC heads and then you'll be able to see what I'm talking about with the added control.  It's all about eliminating variables and going auto will help you tremendously and you'll probably not miss the AC heads until you get them so I say if the price is right, go for it.