Laser to Screen (LTS)

[Dottonedan]

Sometimes when someone (me for example) poses a question that more likely does not pertain to your specific situation or experience, but is more outside the norm, (like my stacking imaged screens against the wall instead of laying in a rack flat, and kept in a room that happens to be very hot (anywhere near 100 or more degree example), it seems most take that and reply to that from your own every day good environment experiences.

I guess I’m at looking at the worst case scenario and asking (what would happen to the wax) in a worst case scenario?  This subject really doesn’t even matter “what the actual head temps of wax printers need to be”. But those were interesting as well.  It’s more about (at what point does wax get affected if at all?  Are there any extreme examples of room temps (100-120 for storage room.

One thing I overlooked in my example is (most if not everyone) will not stack a lot of (unwashed) imaged screens for days in a normal working conduction. Even if you did 1000 screens per day, you would normally get backed up on wash out, but not more than let’s say 20-50 screens setting to be washed (the next day. And they typically would sit overnight…and washed the next day. If overnight, the temps would drop. They may stack them washed for days, (stored) but not “needing washed” for multiple days. .  So that makes more sense to not ever be a factor.

[bimmridder]

Maybe this thread should be re-labled as What CTS or LTS is Best For ME.

Dan, I have a pretty well controlled screen room. At the moment it is 75 degrees and 40% RH. Acceptable I'd say. And I keep it near that using a combination of air conditioning, heat, humidifier and dehumidifier depending on the season. Our weather outside can be anywhere from touching 100 degrees to minus 20 (real temps) with humidity of 10 to 90%. We love living in the Midwest! But you're right. I control my environment. The point I would like to make is, if I was looking at spending 100K on a machine, or hell even half that, I'd want to make sure the area it will be in is climate controlled as necessary. I'm not going to buy a Wagyu steak and think I can cook it over my old Zippo lighter. I'm going to make sure the equipment I'm buying has an acceptable environment to work in. This shop is my livelihood, as I'm sure it is for most reading this thread. I'm going to do what's best for my shop and it's ability to support me and my staff. So if I really think I need to go direct to screen, and realize my work area for that machine is NOT good, I'm going to address that need for improvement first. A few thousand to enclose, ventilate, control temp and humidity to house a unit that costs 50 to 100 thousand dollars might be wise rather than dropping in equipment in an inadequate environment. 

Maybe I should knock off the title of Joe Clarke's book Control Without Confusion and call it Confusion Without Control and keep going here?

[GraphicDisorder]

We simply have no logical place in the building for a "screen room". So we don't have one and we wont have one until we expand our building. We've run our i-image for 10 years right out in our warehouse, feet from our press probably. 15ft from our Sprint 3000 roughly even. It is what it is right now.

[bimmridder]

So I'd bet my bottom dollar a wax machine would be fine there. You already know that. I can't speak to the LTS though. Minimal knowledge

[tonypep]

Our LTS needs to stay no hotter than 90 degrees. Back to back with the auto coat in climate control enviro. Has to be. Also, since all prepress is upstairs, floors had to be reinforced and giant drip pan under auto reclaim. Reinforced floors due to the fact that the Saati is HEAVY. Has to be weighted down at the bottom to prevent shaking. Those lasers travel fast!

[Dottonedan]

Maybe this thread should be re-labled as What CTS or LTS is Best For ME.

Dan, I have a pretty well controlled screen room. At the moment it is 75 degrees and 40% RH. Acceptable I'd say. And I keep it near that using a combination of air conditioning, heat, humidifier and dehumidifier depending on the season. Our weather outside can be anywhere from touching 100 degrees to minus 20 (real temps) with humidity of 10 to 90%. We love living in the Midwest! But you're right. I control my environment. The point I would like to make is, if I was looking at spending 100K on a machine, or hell even half that, I'd want to make sure the area it will be in is climate controlled as necessary. I'm not going to buy a Wagyu steak and think I can cook it over my old Zippo lighter. I'm going to make sure the equipment I'm buying has an acceptable environment to work in. This shop is my livelihood, as I'm sure it is for most reading this thread. I'm going to do what's best for my shop and it's ability to support me and my staff. So if I really think I need to go direct to screen, and realize my work area for that machine is NOT good, I'm going to address that need for improvement first. A few thousand to enclose, ventilate, control temp and humidity to house a unit that costs 50 to 100 thousand dollars might be wise rather than dropping in equipment in an inadequate environment. 

Maybe I should knock off the title of Joe Clarke's book Control Without Confusion and call it Confusion Without Control and keep going here?

Love this post!  If there were a LIKE button, it wouldn’t be enough.

[Dottonedan]

“Those lasers travel fast”.

That reminds me of something I had been thinking just last night.  Ever watch one in motion?
Travels super fast.  There is a lot of weight to that and moves and stops and moves back VERY fast. Even tho they are well built and designed for this, you would have to imagine that there would be some ware and tear coming after so many years of using it.  I wonder how much you get out of those parts. What’s the life of the ware and tear? Again, looking at the worst case scenario.

[inkman996]

I don't know what this convo is really about anymore. I get the over all vibe from you Dan that you want to find some way to put a flaw on wax but it is just not panning out. You keep bringing up 120 degrees which I think is ridiculous. Maybe 115 in some extreme cases but 120? Even then it is already been said at extreme temps no one has had an issue with their wax except for the Spyder but honestly we are all talking about the Douthit here. I do love the I Image we have and will continue to use it till end of life. But the next machine with out even thinking about it will be a wax. Laser would be awesome but not at the current pricing.

[GraphicDisorder]

I don't know what this convo is really about anymore. I get the over all vibe from you Dan that you want to find some way to put a flaw on wax but it is just not panning out. You keep bringing up 120 degrees which I think is ridiculous. Maybe 115 in some extreme cases but 120? Even then it is already been said at extreme temps no one has had an issue with their wax except for the Spyder but honestly we are all talking about the Douthit here. I do love the I Image we have and will continue to use it till end of life. But the next machine with out even thinking about it will be a wax. Laser would be awesome but not at the current pricing.

I can't pin Dan down at all really. He's beating up on Laser and Wax.

Dan are you telling us to buy i-images again?

[tonypep]

I believe it was about LTS but that was a long time ago!  And since I appear to be the only one on this forum who has real time hands on experience with LTS here are some comments to bring back full circle. After 8 months absolutely zero issues. At current cost it will not make sense for most who post here. I believe all screen departments should always be climate controlled from the Sahara (drying room) to the Rainforest (washout/reclaim), to the Temperate zone (Imaging/Coated storage etc) so not an issue for me, athough could be for others. Cons? Price of course. Is it overkill for my shop? Yes but we love it anyway, and it was part of a much larger pkg purchase and we did get a deal on it. It is comforting to know that Saati is only 40 min away but we have not needed any assistance so far. I think as far as parts, maintenance and bulbs etc. this is all conjecture. Fact is no one really knows! Not enough units in the field to have accurate numbers.
Mike officially dropped

[Dottonedan]

I don't know what this convo is really about anymore. I get the over all vibe from you Dan that you want to find some way to put a flaw on wax but it is just not panning out. You keep bringing up 120 degrees which I think is ridiculous. Maybe 115 in some extreme cases but 120? Even then it is already been said at extreme temps no one has had an issue with their wax except for the Spyder but honestly we are all talking about the Douthit here. I do love the I Image we have and will continue to use it till end of life. But the next machine with out even thinking about it will be a wax. Laser would be awesome but not at the current pricing.

Maybe open your heart and mind a little wider to receive that I am asking about areas of the equipment (any equipment) that hasn’t been asked yet.  If any of it.  Like the cost of replacing lasers. (That has nothing to do with wax and Douthit).  It’s been many years since I’ve worked at M&R and have no loyalty there other than I know them to be a good Co and good equipment.  Outside of that, I question areas.  That’s about it.  So…

[Dottonedan]

I don't know what this convo is really about anymore. I get the over all vibe from you Dan that you want to find some way to put a flaw on wax but it is just not panning out. You keep bringing up 120 degrees which I think is ridiculous. Maybe 115 in some extreme cases but 120? Even then it is already been said at extreme temps no one has had an issue with their wax except for the Spyder but honestly we are all talking about the Douthit here. I do love the I Image we have and will continue to use it till end of life. But the next machine with out even thinking about it will be a wax. Laser would be awesome but not at the current pricing.

I can't pin Dan down at all really. He's beating up on Laser and Wax.

Dan are you telling us to buy i-images again?

Editing in the phone (this should be broken off from the quoting but it’s not taking.

Lol.  Not at all. Many would think that I’m all I-Image.   Actually, if I were buying (and did 100 screens a day) then I’d be torn between Douthit and I-IangeSTE 1 head.  (M&R is what I know about already) And Douthit would just be interestingly different.  The wax is as good and different.  So I could go there for sure.

 I would really base my purchase on (production need and cost) for that. Quality is not an issue for me (between any of them).  Laser, wax or wet ink.

Like I mentioned earlier. If I were only doing 50-75 screens a day, I’d go I-Image-S. It’s 30k.  Why pay double that if I don’t need it?   Now once I’m doing 100-200 a day, I’d have to balance out (Douthit single head and I-Image STE single head. But if going I-Image, I’d really choose the one that also exposes on it.  I believe in that savings even if it’s not important to you. It would be to me.

I’d only not choose Laser because I just don’t believe that I need that added quality (if any).  It would not show up enough in print on a tee to justify paying the extra that is needed to do so. And I’d get one machine that does the same production using 3 print heads again, only if I needed 300-400 screens a day.  I just wouldn’t need to go laser. My personal feeling is that I just don’t need it.  But many are buying it right now and don’t need it at all.  That’s odd.  They like the color of the glowing lasers. “New technology”. Ooooh!   But I’m also now reminded that not only do I not think I’d need it, but I’m also really afraid of what will happen later on that resale value or cost of laser replacements. That’s the major deterrent for me now that I’m thinking about it again.

One more.
I’d also have no issues going with wax (because I know I’d never have an environment that was 90-100-120 degrees ever, and I’d never let my imaged wax screens stand against the wall for 5 days. Lol.    Like all of you of course.  I’m just asking questions and digging. No harm in digging to see what we find right?

[Dottonedan]

I believe it was about LTS but that was a long time ago!  And since I appear to be the only one on this forum who has real time hands on experience with LTS here are some comments to bring back full circle. After 8 months absolutely zero issues. At current cost it will not make sense for most who post here. I believe all screen departments should always be climate controlled from the Sahara (drying room) to the Rainforest (washout/reclaim), to the Temperate zone (Imaging/Coated storage etc) so not an issue for me, athough could be for others. Cons? Price of course. Is it overkill for my shop? Yes but we love it anyway, and it was part of a much larger pkg purchase and we did get a deal on it. It is comforting to know that Saati is only 40 min away but we have not needed any assistance so far. I think as far as parts, maintenance and bulbs etc. this is all conjecture. Fact is no one really knows! Not enough units in the field to have accurate numbers.
Mike officially dropped

Good post. 

[Dottonedan]

I don't know what this convo is really about anymore. I get the over all vibe from you Dan that you want to find some way to put a flaw on wax but it is just not panning out. You keep bringing up 120 degrees which I think is ridiculous. Maybe 115 in some extreme cases but 120? Even then it is already been said at extreme temps no one has had an issue with their wax except for the Spyder but honestly we are all talking about the Douthit here. I do love the I Image we have and will continue to use it till end of life. But the next machine with out even thinking about it will be a wax. Laser would be awesome but not at the current pricing.

I can't pin Dan down at all really. He's beating up on Laser and Wax.

Dan are you telling us to buy i-images again?

Another note on this.  I mentioned above that (I, don't need the Laser to obtain any better quality). I know it's not needed to make a perfectly shaped dot at 3% in a 65lpi (on a tee shirts).  With my sep skills, I'm able to obtain any quality in the seps that I need.  I adjust, I make it work. Knowing your sep gal, I can't see you needing to pay for that either.  My opinion.  She does great using her own skills to get out of the prints what she needs in there.  It's more about the separations and how you prepare them than what machine you are using (as it pertains to image quality).  Same for wax or wet ink. It's never mattered. But many people had used (dot shape) as a method or an argument to justify their wax purchase over wet ink in the past...by comparing dot shape quality. Remember those old post?  Me,  I say, enjoy what you've decided to get. It doesn't really matter what machine you get. They all will be a good purchase.

I've never believed that the shape of your dot at 3-5-10% really make a big difference in the end result. That's also where my past example of (the award winning prints using FILM with wet ink, CTS with wet ink and also wax) came to be.  They ALL work...and nobody every complained in a contest about the shape of the small dots. I've been able to show that in my prints, so I'm good with whatever I use.

Now back to Mr Tony Pep's original reason for posting.
If my shop I worked at got a Laser, I'd be stoked too!  Nothing wrong with them if someone had bought it for you to use in your shop. It's not what I would "choose" to buy, but it's not my business is it. LOL.   It's going to work great and (has been) and ain't nothing wrong with that at all! Heck, I'd love one for free it it were me and my GOSH it's 100 times better than where you were I take it.   Good on ya.

[GraphicDisorder]

I don't know what this convo is really about anymore. I get the over all vibe from you Dan that you want to find some way to put a flaw on wax but it is just not panning out. You keep bringing up 120 degrees which I think is ridiculous. Maybe 115 in some extreme cases but 120? Even then it is already been said at extreme temps no one has had an issue with their wax except for the Spyder but honestly we are all talking about the Douthit here. I do love the I Image we have and will continue to use it till end of life. But the next machine with out even thinking about it will be a wax. Laser would be awesome but not at the current pricing.

I can't pin Dan down at all really. He's beating up on Laser and Wax.

Dan are you telling us to buy i-images again?

Another note on this.  I mentioned above that (I, don't need the Laser to obtain any better quality). I know it's not needed to make a perfectly shaped dot at 3% in a 65lpi (on a tee shirts).  With my sep skills, I'm able to obtain any quality in the seps that I need.  I adjust, I make it work. Knowing your sep gal, I can't see you needing to pay for that either.  My opinion.  She does great using her own skills to get out of the prints what she needs in there.  It's more about the separations and how you prepare them than what machine you are using (as it pertains to image quality).  Same for wax or wet ink. It's never mattered. But many people had used (dot shape) as a method or an argument to justify their wax purchase over wet ink in the past...by comparing dot shape quality. Remember those old post?  Me,  I say, enjoy what you've decided to get. It doesn't really matter what machine you get. They all will be a good purchase.

I've never believed that the shape of your dot at 3-5-10% really make a big difference in the end result. That's also where my past example of (the award winning prints using FILM with wet ink, CTS with wet ink and also wax) came to be.  They ALL work...and nobody every complained in a contest about the shape of the small dots. I've been able to show that in my prints, so I'm good with whatever I use.

Now back to Mr Tony Pep's original reason for posting.
If my shop I worked at got a Laser, I'd be stoked too!  Nothing wrong with them if someone had bought it for you to use in your shop. It's not what I would "choose" to buy, but it's not my business is it. LOL.   It's going to work great and (has been) and ain't nothing wrong with that at all! Heck, I'd love one for free it it were me and my GOSH it's 100 times better than where you were I take it.   Good on ya.

I am certain any of them would be fine for us, we make it work regardless as I believe we are a team of people who will simply figure it out. It's not a money thing for me. I just want either a better flow, better quality, or better speed or all 3 if can be. The wax to me makes the MOST sense for me not having a dedicated room. I think ill end up with that. Probably pretty fast too.

Ill tell you the number one thing that has me on the wax train, we are having more issues lately with registration than we should be, why? Our girl running the i-image is small, shes not always hitting the stop blocks as she should, its not a machine flaw as much as it is just her size.  The Wax unit locks in screens with air, thats gotta be better than human I suspect. Talking with others I think its the ticket.