Laser to Screen (LTS)

[GraphicDisorder]

I assume on wax, developing the screen doesn't require hot water right?

[blue moon]

I assume on wax, developing the screen doesn't require hot water right?

Correct

[cleveprint]

I assume on wax, developing the screen doesn't require hot water right?

we are in cleveland, ohio. the water coming out of our pipes in the winter is just above freezing and works just fine!! haha

[Dottonedan]

As Dot Tone Dan mentioned, humidity issues go away with a wax unit. Depending on your setup (if your CTS is in the screen room where you are drying them), being able to run a dehumidifier and not worry about dried up heads could be a big deal.We are running the the wax unit and are pretty happy with it.pierre

Let me also say, (the idea that there is a concern for heads drying up), is not currently legit.  The ink "issue" was only on one type of ink that is now not used. Not used since about 3 years now. But when they were using it and people were seeing "ink" issues, It was not ALL drying issues. It was in both directions. Using the same ink, some environments were too wet/humid that allowed the screens to be too damp on the surface and the ink would not bond like it should, ...while in other shop environments were too dry (using the same ink).  This made it very difficult to identify how to treat it. The window of good opportunity was very small. This also caused Debre buildup in a faster amount of time and added to clogging heads/dried junk in and around the heads that required much more cleaning maintenance. Nobody likes cleaning.

WAX, doesn't rely on water and makes this a nice benefit.  However, Extreme environments of high heat may play a role in the quality of the screen stencil if kept in that environment for a long time.  Extreme heat may be 100-120 degrees may soften and gravity may elongate the image to a very small degree.  (and I've seen some screen rooms that were really hot near 110-120 but also very humid). As you can imagine, this may affect the wax integrity slightly while sitting on the screen, standing vertically against the wall for very long before exposure.  Don't stack and let them pile up and remain in the heat for extreme amounts of time if you're in a very hot environment. Doesn't happen?  Well, there are some shops that do 1000 screens a day (2 shifts) so, there's a lot of sitting around if you get too far ahead on screens.  If using wax, this might get into being a problem but for 95% of wax users, not a problem.

Fair points, Mark seems to think we'd be fine, we dont stack screens really either, we basicially image them right away.  I haven't 1000% made up my mind but most likely going to give the Wax a go. Spoke with some laser users, its bleeding edge.

The wax is water soluble, I would worry more about storing printed screens in humidity than in heat. The melting point of wax is well above 200 degrees.

Are you sure about the melting temp of the wax?  I'd imagine that 200 degrees would be pretty hard on print heads.  Is that in literature somewhere?  Wax generally liquifies right above 150.  120 may soften and distort the dots hanging in gravity (if left to gravity for a period of time) standing up against a wall for example. But I'm not here to prove any of that. Just making a comment that it's possible.  Like I mentioned, It's not even an issue for most all shops. We use screens much faster (most often).

[inkman996]

120 may soften and distort the dots

How many shops are over 120 degrees? I have heard 115 but I bet that is very rare, I doubt anyone would even work in a 120 degree environment. So I think the point is irrelevant

[Dottonedan]

We put a Douthitt in back in winter of '21. 95% of the stuff we print is spot color. Maybe 20 sim process jobs a year. So me going down the dot rabbit hole is not really worth the time or effort to be honest. But what we have produced blows our mind compared to film.

The only thing I can say about the wax machine is that it is as close to maintenance free as you can possibly get. Turn on, print, add wax every 100 screens or so, turn off. Rinse, repeat. A little grease every 6 months in 5 spots. We had a few vacuum issues that were user error adding wax too early and was solved very quickly. Mark and John are unbelievable. One text and you have a call back within the hour from someone.

We wanted the least amount of hassle possible when we bought our first CTS. Im sure the other brands are similar, but our unit is a workhorse. Maintenance free, easily fixed if something does go wrong and top notch customer service. If i had an unlimited budget and time to research, I think Id still end up where we are now for our shop.

All good feeback.  The customer that bought the Douthit that I was there for install, still loves his and has reported to have yet to have anything go wrong with it.

[Dottonedan]

120 may soften and distort the dots

How many shops are over 120 degrees? I have heard 115 but I bet that is very rare, I doubt anyone would even work in a 120 degree environment. So I think the point is irrelevant

Well, if you go back and read the details, as I mentioned, it's a very rare case as I stated. But they are out there. Even 100 is ridiculous in a screen room. I've been in them, and suggested they make accommodations to get it cooler in there using the machine as an excuse to help the people get some air.  But if I've been in them, and I've only worked with a small hand full out of all print shops that ore out there, you can bet there are many more out there like them. I'm not pulling this stuff out of thin air. I've been in it, seen it. There are some shops with very extreme/poor conditions IMO that people work in every day. If they want to work in there, and put a CTS in an environment like this, It's none of my business.  Shops reach various temperatures throughout the day. I've been at 115-120 in my own shops I've worked at that even had air conditioning and a vent over the press operator.  Have that go down one day and you'l know. You can't imagine?  Think of closed off rooms with no air in the summer with a dryer or multiple dryers out in production with a screen room next to production with no air conditioning? Just fans blowing hot air around. Never happens?

[Orion]

Are you sure about the melting temp of the wax?  I'd imagine that 200 degrees would be pretty hard on print heads.  Is that in literature somewhere?  Wax generally liquifies right above 150.  120 may soften and distort the dots hanging in gravity (if left to gravity for a period of time) standing up against a wall for example. But I'm not here to prove any of that. Just making a comment that it's possible.  Like I mentioned, It's not even an issue for most all shops. We use screens much faster (most often).

I have run IJet II and XTS the printhead temp is 110c which is 230f.

[Dottonedan]

Are you sure about the melting temp of the wax?  I'd imagine that 200 degrees would be pretty hard on print heads.  Is that in literature somewhere?  Wax generally liquifies right above 150.  120 may soften and distort the dots hanging in gravity (if left to gravity for a period of time) standing up against a wall for example. But I'm not here to prove any of that. Just making a comment that it's possible.  Like I mentioned, It's not even an issue for most all shops. We use screens much faster (most often).

I have run IJet II and XTS the printhead temp is 110c which is 230f.

Interesting. Kept much higher than other wax imaging devises outside of screen printing, commonly at 70C.  (150f).

[Atownsend]

Pretty sure normal operating temp for our douthitt is somewhere around 105C. We picked up ours used a few years ago from someone who bought a laser. It had a vacuum leak, but like any air leak you just chase it down. Mark was very patient with us as he talked us through the troubleshooting remotely. We also had an issue recently when our anti static mat came loose from the receptacle. But again easy fix, and Mark is basically available whenever you need him. There's a lot to be said when you can pick up the phone and you've always got a guy on the other end.

If laser came down in price and our wax unit went out, then id give it a look. But I don't see the extra upfront cost as worth it (yet). Maybe if it was paired with an inline washout like the signtronic.

Wax is not cheap however. On the high end we run maybe 7-10 blocks a month when we're busy. When were not busy maybe 4-5 / month. Our price from Saati right now is $370 / 10 blocks. So prob around 3100 / yr on consumables. Assume a new printhead @5K every 5 years and you've got an annual cost to operate @ $4100ish / year or 41k over 10 years. We bought our unit used for 32K. Still a bit of a savings vs a laser with no consumables. To me the consumables aren't necessarily that bad, considering that you don't pay the extra cost on the front end as you would with a laser unit. If you finance, you're also paying interest on that front end expense. We pay cash for quality used equipment and it's served us well, just gotta turn a wrench sometimes and use your big brain.

[Evo]

Pretty sure normal operating temp for our douthitt is somewhere around 105C. We picked up ours used a few years ago from someone who bought a laser. It had a vacuum leak, but like any air leak you just chase it down. Mark was very patient with us as he talked us through the troubleshooting remotely. We also had an issue recently when our anti static mat came loose from the receptacle. But again easy fix, and Mark is basically available whenever you need him. There's a lot to be said when you can pick up the phone and you've always got a guy on the other end.

If laser came down in price and our wax unit went out, then id give it a look. But I don't see the extra upfront cost as worth it (yet). Maybe if it was paired with an inline washout like the signtronic.

Wax is not cheap however. On the high end we run maybe 7-10 blocks a month when we're busy. When were not busy maybe 4-5 / month. Our price from Saati right now is $370 / 10 blocks. So prob around 3100 / yr on consumables. Assume a new printhead @5K every 5 years and you've got an annual cost to operate @ $4100ish / year or 41k over 10 years. We bought our unit used for 32K. Still a bit of a savings vs a laser with no consumables. To me the consumables aren't necessarily that bad, considering that you don't pay the extra cost on the front end as you would with a laser unit. If you finance, you're also paying interest on that front end expense. We pay cash for quality used equipment and it's served us well, just gotta turn a wrench sometimes and use your big brain.

All good points and a similar scenario here. About $3500 (ish) per year in wax plus another $5k - $6k for a head replacement. Was a new machine, so at approx 6 years about $80k (ish) all in.


I am wondering if:

A) the "10,000 hours" figure I see listed for laser life is *true*, and if so is it 5-6 years before they need to be changed out? (if they don't fail sporadically before that).

and

B) What's the $ damage on replacing a bank of lasers? Similar to a ink or wax print head? Less? More?

[Rockers]

120 may soften and distort the dots

How many shops are over 120 degrees? I have heard 115 but I bet that is very rare, I doubt anyone would even work in a 120 degree environment. So I think the point is irrelevant

Well, if you go back and read the details, as I mentioned, it's a very rare case as I stated. But they are out there. Even 100 is ridiculous in a screen room. I've been in them, and suggested they make accommodations to get it cooler in there using the machine as an excuse to help the people get some air.  But if I've been in them, and I've only worked with a small hand full out of all print shops that ore out there, you can bet there are many more out there like them. I'm not pulling this stuff out of thin air. I've been in it, seen it. There are some shops with very extreme/poor conditions IMO that people work in every day. If they want to work in there, and put a CTS in an environment like this, It's none of my business.  Shops reach various temperatures throughout the day. I've been at 115-120 in my own shops I've worked at that even had air conditioning and a vent over the press operator.  Have that go down one day and you'l know. You can't imagine?  Think of closed off rooms with no air in the summer with a dryer or multiple dryers out in production with a screen room next to production with no air conditioning? Just fans blowing hot air around. Never happens?

At anything above 86F the Exile Spyder might start experiencing problems. Ours just did this summer. The low vac. will drop to levels where you have ink leaking from the printhead to a point where the tank might run empty and the print head will fail. Keeping your darkroom at temperatures below 86F is well recommended.

[Dottonedan]

  I am wondering if:

A) the "10,000 hours" figure I see listed for laser life is *true*, and if so is it 5-6 years before they need to be changed out? (if they don't fail sporadically before that).

and

B) What's the $ damage on replacing a bank of lasers? Similar to an ink or wax print head? Less? More?

The info I received on this was from a saati sales rep. This was about 3 years ago so some numbers could have changed.

Saati will tell you that the 10k hrs comes out to more like 8-10 years. But it’s all based on how many s teens you do a day. The size of art doesn’t matter. A left chest takes just as long as a 18” tall print as the laser travels the whole screen. The timing is not based on (on and off firing of the laser) but rather the duration of time that it is on. So whatever a normal completion time is. I think that is under 2 min. Like 1 min and 50 seconds or close. X 100 screens per day, or 200 screens? The more screens per day, the more your laser life clock runs down. So for a shop that doesn’t do a lot of screens (50-70) a day, your laser life will be longer.

I am told they don’t all go out at once. I’m told that a laser can go out for any odd reason like anything else does. So you replace that one. It takes roughly 30 min to replace one (complexity). There is a process.  One part of that process is to literally plug it in, and that is what they will market. But there’s more so doing that. In all, it may be 20-30 min. Per laser.  As you reach near 5-6 years (average) you might consider replacing all at one time. You won’t really want to because of the price. In total, the cost of all lasers will be well over 30k. Add in that labor time and micl for each and you are up near 35k.

When I added up an average of wet ink cost and average consumption + 2 head replacement and micl parts and labor, over 5 years, both wax and wet ink would fall at or less than, being closer to 28-30k than the 35k for laser (using 5 years) as the time frame.  Somewhere very close to those numbers.

[bimmridder]

Are you sure about the melting temp of the wax?  I'd imagine that 200 degrees would be pretty hard on print heads.  Is that in literature somewhere?  Wax generally liquifies right above 150.  120 may soften and distort the dots hanging in gravity (if left to gravity for a period of time) standing up against a wall for example. But I'm not here to prove any of that. Just making a comment that it's possible.  Like I mentioned, It's not even an issue for most all shops. We use screens much faster (most often).

From a very reliable source.....

Wax feed melts wax at 106 C or 224 F. Wax is "Phase change technology" so from liquid it changes to solid on screen. Screens can EASILY sit hours and even days with no effect. (I've had screens sit over the weekend before developing) Print heads are industrial.

[Dottonedan]

I was surprised to see that a Douthit head temp requires so much heat to liquify. A lot of “phase changing” wax liquifies at lower temps. But that’s about all that comes from these few replies. You’ve proven that your head temps are higher than I had imagined. Ok. You’ve all proven that it’s high than I thought.  I never said “can’t be true”. So we are all friends there right?  Cool.

But that doesn’t speak to wether or not the wax (softens) at all, in high room temps….and if it softens /changes when set against gravity, does that soft wax change shape at all.   For example. Barth, said “can keep them for days “EASILY”. I would hope and expect so, under regular or normal conditions.

It would really be saying something enlightening if he or anyone is saying they can keep them for days stacked vertical against the wall, in room temps of 110-115 degrees?  But I’m sure at these conditions, the place would cool down at night when crap down. So that’s not a constant 100-120 degree temps. 

Barth,   Where does your screen room environment temp average out to, typically?