PRODUCTION - what press actually out performs?

[inkman996]

Flashing was the cause of 30-40% of misprints in our shop.

I think flashing issues is more like 80% of our miss prints

[zanegun08]

When I calculate times I base it off 400 an hour.  Not because we run our presses at that, they probably index near 700-800 an hour, however to me it's all the time lost stopping.  Lint, Ink, Registration Issues, Breaks, Bathroom, Sneezing, ect.

Yes the presses hypothetically can run 800 an hour, or ~13 pieces a minute, however in that hour you stop 5 times for a minute each, there goes 65 shirts, you stop to clean out your water base for break or lunch, there is another 130 pieces - 260 pieces lost for that downtime.  Miss load a shirt and stop to fix it, there is a few pieces lost.

That all adds up, that's why I like to calculate around 400 an hour as it is obtainable, at 800 (a shirt every 4.5 seconds) I doubt people are running that consistent for hours, and so even though a press can go 1000+ an hour, unless you have lint screens, an easy (distressed?) image, low QC standards, I doubt people are running that without stopping, and it's the stopping that really eats into that piece per hour output.

[GraphicDisorder]

Oh, you can add press size to the mix of important factors (really small presses are slightly faster to set up and run since it takes less time to walk around).
pierre

Please walk around a smaller auto, then a larger and report back the time difference. You'll be shocked how little difference really is.

I think there are plenty of logical arguments for not having a big auto like cost, space constraints, don't want to print that many colors and so on. But how long to walk around it I have always found that one to be one of the most ridiculous.

I would think so too, but don't knock it until you try it. I will agree that it does not amount to much and I did say slightly faster, but from experience I can tell you that small presses are more nimble and and have quicker turnovers.

pierre

Until I try it? I came from a 8 color. So I have tried it on 8 color, 12 color and now 18 color. I think I posted in another post about this before. If memory serves it was something like 2-3 seconds longer walk around a 18 color than a 12. It really isn't a thing. So if you just double that time lets say 6 seconds longer to walk around a 18 then a 8 color for example, I think that makes this a reach.

Again plenty of other logical reasons.....this one isn't one IMO.

[T Shirt Farmer]

Does one come out ahead of the other on a long run?  Are we really only looking at setup time and ease of operation for the bulk of a purchase consideration?

 I will add that our operators have almost 20 years of experience running MHM presses and another 10-15 of running M&R

IMO this is the biggest factor in machine selection, experienced printers are becoming an endangered species as everyone here knows. Life span of new hires is more than likely months not years 85% of the time. Your work funnel and equipment need to be intuitive. Having pinned registration, DTS imaging, integrated flash temp are huge in accelerating the training of a press operator. It is much easier training/learning to parallel park a Mini Cooper than then a F-350 long bed.

[inkman996]

I bet you in third world countries speed is a major factor. There they print massive jobs so set ups is less often, and people are willing to work at the fastest speed the managers push them just to have a pay check.

[blue moon]

that just shows, we all have slightly different requirements. . . ball peen and carpenter's are both hammers, but they each have their own best use scenario.

pierre

[ZooCity]

For me it's all about machine up time and ease of setup and operation.   S.roques really tick those boxes.  Up time is very high and maintenance is a breeze and can be done by any press op for the most part.  Setup and operation is abt as good as it gets- if you can throw a shirt, you can run one of these and you should only get faster over time.  Yes, integrated, temp sensing flashes make a massive difference in the amount of operator skill and experience needed. 

As far as actual operating speed goes it'll be a slow printing head, long flashing ink or pinholed screen that slows things down; not really machine related items imo. 

[1964GN]

Does one come out ahead of the other on a long run?  Are we really only looking at setup time and ease of operation for the bulk of a purchase consideration?

yes we are. reliability and service are within tolerable limits on most presses. As much as we pick on Anatol, reality is even they will not leave you hanging. If they press is down you will get it up. If it takes an extra day to get it done, that is a small amount of printed shirts compared to printing extra 100 pieces per day.

now... there are different business models and they all have slightly different needs. Production speed also depends on how your shop is set up and how many ppl you have. Further complicating everything is the your color counts and order sizes. So order pattern for GraphicDisorder is very different from ours. Oh, you can add press size to the mix of important factors (really small presses are slightly faster to set up and run since it takes less time to walk around).

so, where does this all lead?
1. faster setup.
we were unable to get the CTS-trilock thing working. chalk it up to the screens with bushings going on ROQ presses and an older CTS unit. I will also add that our press operators have a LOT of experience and last time we measured how long it takes to set up, the difference between pre reg and what we are doing is very slight. There is room for improvement, but not as much as one would think (similar to the Film vs CTS. if you are dialed in with films the advantages of CTS are not as big). All said and done, we are upgrading our CTS this week, but mostly for the sake of speeding things up in the dark room. If we get the pre reg to work that will be a bonus.
So which pre reg is the fastest? ROQ and M&R use a similar system. comparing the MHM to those two there are pluses and minuses. If you are using an older MHM without the notches in the micros, tri lock style is a better option. If the notch is there, MHM system is a better design (bushings and pins have to be kept clean for it to work well though. not everybody does). If everything is working well, MHM with notches will set up the fastest.
2. faster production
let me preface this with saying that the difference in what a press can produce per hour is going to amount to only very low single digit percentage. once the job is set up, the brand of the press will not be a huge factor in the number of shirts being printed per hour. so what does matter? the ease of operation becomes a huge factor. Easier to operate the press, less burn out there is and higher the morale (these two factors might be completely irrelevant to some shops!). I think this is where the ROQ shines. Other presses have updated their operating system since we shopped last few years back so some of the nifty features of the ROQ might now be available on other company's equipment (got to or stroke control from the main panel for example). But one undisputed advantage still present is the cooled sensors on the digital flashes. wow, whooptee doo! Who cares? But in reality, this is huuuuge. let's back up for a sec. digital flashes eliminate the stress of staying on top of flash times. it is a constant worry about underflashing, overflashing and keeping the production at optimal speeds. Flashing was the cause of 30-40% of misprints in our shop. going digital, that extra mental stress is removed and operating the press becomes a whole lot less stressful. It also allows for much quicker training the press operators since they don't have to be taught about flash times. Now, back to the regularly scheduled programming. . . the cooled sensors. With all the other manufacturers there is a drift in the flash temperature as it gets warmer. It is caused by the sensor getting hotter and hotter during the operation. It causes the temps to drift with time and requires some small amount of adjusting/compensation. so we are back to thinking about flashes. not nearly as much as before, but it's in the back of the mind. With ROQ's cooled sensors, they are truly set and forget. the only time we make any changes is when the garment color or material dictate so, but for the most part we don't touch the flashes during the day beyond turning them on.

enough rambling, sorry. I will add that our operators have almost 20 years of experience running MHM presses and another 10-15 of running M&R. Not one would go back to anything else. But, that is us and our circumstances. average order 48 pieces, average colors 3, high quality is a must and a 3 day turnaround. your circumstances will vary.

pierre

We have had our MHM smart flashes for about a year and they are very comparable to the ROQ cool sensor flashes. While there may be a small temp shift, you would never notice it. Honey comb pallets on both ROQ and MHM cool down much faster and that can be an issue when starting/stopping during a run. Our MHM flashes actually perform better than our ROQ Evo's did, overall.

These newer MHM's with pins combined with the Douthitt CTS is a real powerful combination. There was a learning curve when going fro ROQ to MHM, don't get me wrong. They way they print is different BUT once we got it down we feel we are producing better quality prints than with the ROQ's, with much faster set up times.

[Dottonedan]

I’ve been hearing a lot about the ROQ’s ease of operator use. Like you can pull someone off the street and teach them to print shirts same day. More like “run the press” same day, to be more clear. We all know actually troubleshooting print issues, dialing in a sim process, printing a solid vector color on a low mesh white screen on hoodies, requires much more skill and training. There is “operation” of a press, and then there is “printer skill”.  Two different things.


In these discussions, I’ve been told of their concern for many jobs not getting what they feel is “enough”flash”.  Like it’s been cooling down or they can’t dial it in like they have been accustom to. So the above flash discussions makes sense now.


For our shop (when I worked at Disney), we ran 5 presses (including our old 8 color precision). We ran jobs that were 3000, 5000 and 7000 units (per order) every day. A few 1000 piece orders sprinkled in there occasioanlly. Most jobs were ran on one press (all day). My point for mentioning this, is that we didn’t do a lot of setups in a day. We did much more “feeding the screens”with ink and walking around presses than we did doing setups. So we had high production numbers.  Our daily goal was 20k shirts per day. We reached that some days, most days we didn’t. When you are in a shop running those types of jobs, over time, you start to learn who’s also out there running these sizes orders. Fortune fashion (now sold to Hanes or Gildan and moved to Honduras), was doing about 4 times more than we were. New Buffalo Shirt Factory, the same (sold to Hanes to Gildan). I don’t remember who bought who exactly. Giant Merchandise was another and bigger than Fortune I think. Liberty was another big name. There are several in Fl still going


There are many more than one would think that are still out there where this (long run comparison) question sort of came from on my part.  I’m sure these shops only make up a small portion of the US industry (maybe 10-15%). Especially compared to 15-20 years ago when Nafta pulled a lot of big business out.

[blue moon]

I’ve been hearing a lot about the ROQ’s ease of operator use. Like you can pull someone off the street and teach them to print shirts same day. More like “run the press” same day, to be more clear. We all know actually troubleshooting print issues, dialing in a sim process, printing a solid vector color on a low mesh white screen on hoodies, requires much more skill and training. There is “operation” of a press, and then there is “printer skill”.  Two different things.


In these discussions, I’ve been told of their concern for many jobs not getting what they feel is “enough”flash”.  Like it’s been cooling down or they can’t dial it in like they have been accustom to. So the above flash discussions makes sense now.


For our shop (when I worked at Disney), we ran 5 presses (including our old 8 color precision). We ran jobs that were 3000, 5000 and 7000 units (per order) every day. A few 1000 piece orders sprinkled in there occasioanlly. Most jobs were ran on one press (all day). So we had high production numbers.  Our daily goal was 20k shirts per day. We reached that some days, most days we didn’t. When you are in a shop running those types of jobs, over time, you start to learn who’s also out there running these sizes orders. Fortune fashion (now sold to Hanes or Gildan and moved to Honduras), was doing about 4 times more than we were. New Buffalo Shirt Factory, the same (sold to Hanes to Gildan). I don’t remember who bought who exactly. Giant Merchandise was another and bigger than Fortune I think. Liberty was another big name. There are several in Fl still going


There are many more than one would think that are still out there where this (long run comparison) question sort of came from on my part.  I’m sure these shops only make up a small portion of the US industry (maybe 10-15%). Especially compared to 15-20 years ago when Nafta pulled a lot of big business out.

my guesstimate is there are 50k shops in US. there are probably only about 10-15 that run those numbers any more. That work is gone!

While we are a contract shop, I would guess that our numbers are probably right about average for orders these days (pre COVID). We have a good mix of small and largish orders and our average is about 120. BUT... that's because of the occasional 10k or something along those lines. Our median order size is around 48. That means that half of the orders we print are for less than 48 pieces. I think with COVID changes, those numbers will drop quite a bit pretty soon. Requests for one off or 2-3 pieces will increase significantly.  I think what we though was our new normal has changed again and 48 piece average will be out the door within few years.

for the orders still being done on the presses, the fast change over will be a must. We are setting up the new CTS and I will see how it goes with the ROQs. A friend of mine few miles away is setting up 4 presses with MHM and the same CTS. It will be nice to compare and contrast.


pierre

[tonypep]

Dan lets not forget OATS (Ocean Atlantic Textile Screenprinting) 11 artists, 16 autos three shifts all Rock and Roll. The East Coast reply to Winterland Productions. Stories are legendary. And both have been gone for almost two decades.

[Sbrem]

This is not the most uplifting thread I've read in a while. I seem to see what Pierre is seeing, smaller jobs, with more color. I've been selling a lot of transfer work recently because it can fill the needs of the customer and we can make a profit. I'm thinking we need updated heat transfer presses that will allow a team to produce faster. We have 600 face masks coming up, with an image that would simply be inferior if screenprinted, as it's about 1" square with some very fine blends, which would simply not look as good at 60 LPI. Damn, there's always something...

Steve

[GraphicDisorder]

Our jobs are trending larger. Used to id say most of our orders were 48-72pcs. Now id say most of our orders are 144pcs-288pcs. Certainly dont see many 1000+ pcs orders anymore (single design). We see/feed plenty of clothing brands ordering that amount of shits but over 2-3-4 designs or something each hit.

Color trend for us keeps increasing. Couple years back most jobs were 6-8 colors (often both sides). Now most are probably 8-10 colors (often both sides). 

I am turning away jobs every week that are 14+ colors. We have a 18 color but I literally don't care past 12colors. That's enough in my mind.

[blue moon]

Our jobs are trending larger. Used to id say most of our orders were 48-72pcs. Now id say most of our orders are 144pcs-288pcs. Certainly dont see many 1000+ pcs orders anymore (single design). We see/feed plenty of clothing brands ordering that amount of shits but over 2-3-4 designs or something each hit.

Color trend for us keeps increasing. Couple years back most jobs were 6-8 colors (often both sides). Now most are probably 8-10 colors (often both sides). 

I am turning away jobs every week that are 14+ colors. We have a 18 color but I literally don't care past 12colors. That's enough in my mind.

we have a similar trend with orders growing, but that is related to being a more established company and working with bigger clients. while we could not take a 50k order earlier, we have done some and it was not a big deal. As the company matures, our customers are more comfortable taking those big jobs.
but looking at average demand, the numbers are trending down.

pierre

[ericheartsu]

Our jobs are trending larger. Used to id say most of our orders were 48-72pcs. Now id say most of our orders are 144pcs-288pcs. Certainly dont see many 1000+ pcs orders anymore (single design). We see/feed plenty of clothing brands ordering that amount of shits but over 2-3-4 designs or something each hit.

Color trend for us keeps increasing. Couple years back most jobs were 6-8 colors (often both sides). Now most are probably 8-10 colors (often both sides). 

I am turning away jobs every week that are 14+ colors. We have a 18 color but I literally don't care past 12colors. That's enough in my mind.

This is exactly what we are seeing. and reprints are happening faster, as our customers are selling faster.