Discharge buildup on underside of screens

[cclaud3]

I have read the other TSB threads regarding this but don't see a definite answer. Assorted responses include:
off contact too high. we are using minimal OC
use higher mesh. tried up to 280
don't flash. doesn't work at least at the temps we have tried below.
underexposed screen. maybe this. using saati single point led but looking to go back to metal halide.

Matsui brite discharge base
Quick additive in our mixes
Mesh count ranges of 150 S, 225 S, 280 T and still buildup.
Squeegee hardness ranges of regular 80, triple 70/90/70, 60/90/60. Happens with all hardnesses
Double stroking. Single stroke won't work on 225 & up mesh. Single stroke doesn't provide a solid print.

Colors that are flashed do not buildup. But I understand the residual flash heat in the platens could be causing the problem.
Have tried both of our ROQ flashes at 60-90 Celsius.

Wiping screens every 30 shirts. Pre-wiping with water (suggested in another thread) doesn't effect it positively.

If I could flash between every color we would be good to go.

Thoughts?

[brandon]

The colors / pantone's that have white in the mix put later in the print order. What are your problem colors? I know it's not all of them

[cclaud3]

Thanks, nearly all of them have some white base. The clear-only colors aren't as much of an issue.
What do you do when you have 5 or 6 ink colors with 2 flashes?

The very last one was black (225 mesh), 4675C khaki (150s mesh), flash, cool gray 5C (225 mesh), Super 75 white (150s mesh), flash, 185C red (150s mesh). 150 shirts

Job before that was 1625 (225s mesh), 431C (150s mesh), flash, 7499 (225), 7506 (150s mesh), flash, 7485 (225), white (155). 600 shirts

We are running 2-4 of these type of 4+ color count jobs everyday.
Caking up on every 2nd screen after the flash. Everything flashed is fine.

[Frog]

Plastisol inks have always had this problem as well, though with the development of wet on wet print friendly inks, it got more manageable. At any rate, the band aid we used was spraying the subsequent screens with silicone spray (or even Pam)

[cclaud3]

I agree they both have their intricacies. After printing plastisol for 12 years we moved to 100% wb at the beginning of the year. .

We just never had the caking up that results in distressing the print. Just takes 2 dozen or so prints to start.
You can pick the rubberized pieces off of the print and backs of the screens.

I know I'm not the only one. There are numerous threads on here and other forum sites discussing this same issue. No confirmed solution. Only mentions of possibly underexposed screens, too much off contact, mesh count, flashing vs no flashing. We are getting good exposures with great durability. Post exposure on every screen the day before printing.

I can try the silicone spray.

[cclaud3]

Just a thought. We use the super 75 white as our discharge white base. Is there something funky in that base that would cause a buildup issue? If anything it has less white base. My understanding is that it is premix of brite white + brite base. We would use pure brite white but it's unusable without basing down without regular brite base.

[brandon]

Eric on here is the Matsui Master. We are all CCI. Two different inks.

[ericheartsu]

wait are you saying you're using super 75 as a discharge underbase? Or are you using it as a base to mix colors? Either way, you should be using Binder 301, not super 75 for mixing.

Super 75 should be a standalone white DC.

[cclaud3]

No discharge underbases. Using the word ‘base’ purely to reference the white and clear base references in matsui’s software.

We are using brite discharge base for the clear part of the regular discharge recipes. If white base is required in the recipe then We use super 75 in lieu of brite white discharge. My understanding is super 75 is brite white discharge mixed 75/25 brite white with brite discharge base. We have made a few formulas with brite white combined with brite discharge base as well.

We use super 75 as our white discharge as well.

So anytime white is requested in discharge recipes you use 301 dm binder? My supplier had said to do it as i am doing which is the reason for what we have been doing. The matsui desktop and previous software is so generic it says white base. The newer online version has Alpha trans white listed when white is instructed in the recipe. Please confirm when you have a chance.

[3Deep]

On long runs the silicone spray seems to make the build up worse on some jobs that we've used it on or we have to replied to often which was a pain, flashing every color would be nice LOL but not always possible.

[ericheartsu]

No discharge underbases. Using the word ‘base’ purely to reference the white and clear base references in matsui’s software.

We are using brite discharge base for the clear part of the regular discharge recipes. If white base is required in the recipe then We use super 75 in lieu of brite white discharge. My understanding is super 75 is brite white discharge mixed 75/25 brite white with brite discharge base. We have made a few formulas with brite white combined with brite discharge base as well.

We use super 75 as our white discharge as well.

So anytime white is requested in discharge recipes you use 301 dm binder? My supplier had said to do it as i am doing which is the reason for what we have been doing. The matsui desktop and previous software is so generic it says white base. The newer online version has Alpha trans white listed when white is instructed in the recipe. Please confirm when you have a chance.

we don't use their software. we just built our own formulas out. 

We wouldn't recommend using super 75 as a mixing white. and instead use matsui bright discharge white and the 301 binder as the clear. then neo pigments as needed.

The more white you have in your ink, the more you're going to have zombie skin. You also want to make sure that your pallets are warmed up. If they get to hot, that also starts to prematurely cure the ink on press, geling it, and causing that zombie skin.

Alpha series should be ok to use, but it's an RFU mixing system, so i'm not sure how that plays into mixability with other inks.

Flashes on press are gonna be your friend, low, and slow.

I'd also recommend connecting with Jesse, if you haven't already.

[cclaud3]

Ok, I have received some official info on the recipes. I'm posting a summary of the response.

Brite Discharge White is full white
Super 75 Discharge White is 75/25 Brite Discharge White/Brite Base
HM Discharge White White is less than 75/25 mix of Brite White/Brite base
Alpha Trans white is 60/40 mix of Discharge Binder 301 DM/HM Discharge White

Technically any can work for the white portion of the Pantone recipes. Obviously the higher concentration of white the more sticky it will be.

It was suggested to use HM Discharge white for white portion of recipe along with brite discharge base.
Can also use HM Discharge Base instead of Brite Discharge Base or a 50/50 blend of these two bases.

Use 10% quick additive. We have been using 6%.
Can try additional 3% mg softener. But I probably will not do this in conjunction with 10% quick additive.
Platens warmed at 130-140 F. We were close but a little over temp.
Mesh counts 180-230 for Wet on wet. We were already doing this for screens to be stepped on.
Slow press down to allow heated platens to dry ink between screens. Ok, we were running 350-450 hour as it was already.
Double stroke with fast speed. Already doing this
Slightly off contact. Already there

So the 2 main things of differences from what we were doing are HM white discharge for the white portions of the recipe and upping quick additive to 10%. Will be trying this.
Again, their dated downloadable software doesn't even reference discharge. It lists stretch white & stretch clear for nearly every recipe. Quite confusing.
The newer online software using alpha trans for the white parts. Confusing again as it's part of the alpha system. It was clarified that it's a 60/40 mix of binder & HM discharge white.
Wasn't even aware of the 301 binder product.
How in the world you are supposed to know this info is beyond me. Hope this is of use for anyone else.

[ericheartsu]

Ok, I have received some official info on the recipes. I'm posting a summary of the response.

Brite Discharge White is full white
Super 75 Discharge White is 75/25 Brite Discharge White/Brite Base
HM Discharge White White is less than 75/25 mix of Brite White/Brite base
Alpha Trans white is 60/40 mix of Discharge Binder 301 DM/HM Discharge White

Technically any can work for the white portion of the Pantone recipes. Obviously the higher concentration of white the more sticky it will be.

It was suggested to use HM Discharge white for white portion of recipe along with brite discharge base.
Can also use HM Discharge Base instead of Brite Discharge Base or a 50/50 blend of these two bases.

Use 10% quick additive. We have been using 6%.
Can try additional 3% mg softener. But I probably will not do this in conjunction with 10% quick additive.
Platens warmed at 130-140 F. We were close but a little over temp.
Mesh counts 180-230 for Wet on wet. We were already doing this for screens to be stepped on.
Slow press down to allow heated platens to dry ink between screens. Ok, we were running 350-450 hour as it was already.
Double stroke with fast speed. Already doing this
Slightly off contact. Already there

So the 2 main things of differences from what we were doing are HM white discharge for the white portions of the recipe and upping quick additive to 10%. Will be trying this.
Again, their dated downloadable software doesn't even reference discharge. It lists stretch white & stretch clear for nearly every recipe. Quite confusing.
The newer online software using alpha trans for the white parts. Confusing again as it's part of the alpha system. It was clarified that it's a 60/40 mix of binder & HM discharge white.
Wasn't even aware of the 301 binder product.
How in the world you are supposed to know this info is beyond me. Hope this is of use for anyone else.

This is the downfall of matsui. Always coming out with new products, and all the names are very similar. We've been campaigning for a change for years.

[brandon]

Right here has been my reluctance to switch over to Matsui for our discharge. I've been wanting for years to use one ink company for all our water base needs but we are locked in with CCI for our own formulas. The Matsui Discharge and recipe line ups give me headaches. There are a few other companies out there I like as well from Aquo to the new whatever Zodiac / Wiflex is called but getting stock and answers and formulas is something else. It's almost 2021 and not one ink company in my opinion has a stable water base line up.

[ericheartsu]

Right here has been my reluctance to switch over to Matsui for our discharge. I've been wanting for years to use one ink company for all our water base needs but we are locked in with CCI for our own formulas. The Matsui Discharge and recipe line ups give me headaches. There are a few other companies out there I like as well from Aquo to the new whatever Zodiac / Wiflex is called but getting stock and answers and formulas is something else. It's almost 2021 and not one ink company in my opinion has a stable water base line up.

i didn't say matsui wasn't stable. i just said they also have products you've never heard of, that do incredible things. but we've been using more or less the same inks for 3 years.