Maverick vs. Avalanche

[tbarnes]

Greetings,

We are looking at adding a more efficient DTG machine given the current market. I am currently drafting a comparison of the M&R Maverick vs. the Kornit Avalanche. Does anyone have any input in comparing the two machines? Anyone currently own either machine and want to hit me with some pros and cons? Looking for maintenance, troubleshooting, pricing analysis (I never trust the salesman price analysis) etc.

Any info is greatly appreciated.

[TCT]

I don't own one, maintain one or plan on getting one. But we have had a few things printed on both units. The Maverick blows any Kornit out of the water in quality. Now, some of that could be the places we get stuff from, but the final product from the Maverick is just amazing.

Kind of unfortunate because I own Kornit stock 

[Dottonedan]

We have the Kornit Avalanche at our shop.
All I can tell you is that it hasn't worked for two years. That may be due to the people before me didn't take good care of it and stopped using it...didn't prepare it for sitting and all of the heads dried up. Those two don't work here anymore. When I started with this Co. it wasn't working, so I looked into getting it running and all heads would need replaced. $80k to do so. Then, if I wanted to upgrade the inks to be able to print on any type garment like bleeders (comfort colors), it would be another 80k upgrade. We decided that for the amount of DTG work we want to have in our shop, it's best to let it sit and eventually get heads replaced and sell it.

[tbarnes]

Thanks for the feedback guys.

Just want to bump this and keep this relevant since I need to move pretty quickly on it.

Anyone care to share any other experiences they have had with either machine, positive or negative?

Thanks again.

[GraphicDisorder]

Real question, how come almost nobody is talking about the Maverick?

I assume most people doing DTG are on the basic hobbist stuff like the basic epson/brother stuff. But next tier, I dont see any one talking about it.

[Dottonedan]

Real question, how come almost nobody is talking about the Maverick?

I assume most people doing DTG are on the basic hobbist stuff like the basic epson/brother stuff. But next tier, I dont see any one talking about it.

Yea, I would’t even know there was a Maverick if it were not for a couple people mentioning it. LOL.  (This being the 2nd place I’ve seen mentioning it).

[brandon]

Because everyone into this is talking about the new commercial grade Epson that can print roughly 40 to 60 (or more) shirts a hour depending on image size. And at 1/4 the price with a warranty that includes tech and head replacement. And when this tech changes every 1 to 2 years the price does not make sense unless you have 3 shifts working a day with each shift printing non stop.

[tbarnes]

Real question, how come almost nobody is talking about the Maverick?

I assume most people doing DTG are on the basic hobbist stuff like the basic epson/brother stuff. But next tier, I dont see any one talking about it.

Bumping this one last time before I give up and let the thread die.

Brandt, to weigh in on your point, I think that most people are starting off with the entry level machines like Brother and Epson because the $300k price tag (don't quote me on that, not sure what the exact cost they're selling it is) on the Maverick and the even higher price tag on Kornit scare people away. Also, the technology has been evolving a lot in the last few years and the market will need some time to catch up. We stayed away from digital for the longest because the print felt like crap, smelt like crap, sometimes looked like crap, etc. and then seeing the improvements in the last couple of years we decided to get a Brother last November. Not because we are a small shop (have 15 auto machines, 3 taggers, full service with fulfillment, embroidery, sewing, the whole shabang) but because the 25k for a brand new brother machine seemed more feasible to get our feet wet on the digital side of the industry.

The Brother machine has worked well for us, we dialed in printing on a lot of substrates and have images looking crisp. The problem is the cost of the ink just isn't efficient for the long term ROI and the speed of the printer is another issue. Given the state of the world right now our on demand business has been growing substantially, and I think as the world returns to normal that need for on demand printing is going to stay. That's why we are looking at options to get our price per piece down and trying to find the most efficient machine.

[zanegun08]

Real question, how come almost nobody is talking about the Maverick?

Because it costs more than a couple of your sports cars combined!  There is a place in Bellingham that got a Maverick that I've sent a few orders to, the first production order is actually in the works right now.  Imprintmaker.com, the samples I got (I did 12 images and two of each so I could do wash tests), generally looked pretty nice, and feel good for DTG.  However, the prints on fleece looked terrible, there was some issues with under bases poking out, and there is a known issue with spotting of the white on large areas that for the price I think is unacceptable being sold before that is addressed.

And, you still have to pretreat separate which is nice with the Kornits that pre-treat is one step (are they still doing that?) but may also be why their prints aren't as crisp.

Because everyone into this is talking about the new commercial grade Epson.

Do you know anyone that has one of these that does contract printing?  I'd be interested to send some work to an Epson printer to see the quality.  I really want DTG to be viable, but right now I'd rather find a network to outsource to so they can deal with the headaches, a $50 new setup for DTG orders which includes a pre-sample I think is fine for my customer, and that could cover shipping both from the vendor and drop shipped to the customer, and then a 24 piece minimum, as I don't want to deal with low quantities.

Given the state of the world right now our on demand business has been growing substantially, and I think as the world returns to normal that need for on demand printing is going to stay. That's why we are looking at options to get our price per piece down and trying to find the most efficient machine.

If you look at all the larger on demand printers, they have more of the lesser cost printers, since redundancy is important.  I think if the new Epson printers are like 40K, you could get 6 for the price of the Maverick, or 12 for the cost of a higher end Kornit, then you have a single operator running 3 machines, you'll have more throughput, lesser cost of entry and you can scale up as necessary, and when one goes down, the others stay running.

I think that DTG is best suited for on demand printing and split shipping, because even if the prints aren't great, they are generally split shipping to multiple people, so rather than one unhappy customer with 48 shirts, you have 48 people with 2 unhappy customers you can just refund and have them keep their shirt and you are still making a product.

The issue with outsourcing is finding reliable places that know quality.

[GraphicDisorder]

Real question, how come almost nobody is talking about the Maverick?

Because it costs more than a couple of your sports cars combined!  There is a place in Bellingham that got a Maverick that I've sent a few orders to, the first production order is actually in the works right now.  Imprintmaker.com, the samples I got (I did 12 images and two of each so I could do wash tests), generally looked pretty nice, and feel good for DTG.  However, the prints on fleece looked terrible, there was some issues with under bases poking out, and there is a known issue with spotting of the white on large areas that for the price I think is unacceptable being sold before that is addressed.

And, you still have to pretreat separate which is nice with the Kornits that pre-treat is one step (are they still doing that?) but may also be why their prints aren't as crisp.

Yikes my Ferrari was 344k, so its over 700k for one of those?  I wouldn't even look its direction for that.

[zanegun08]

Yikes my Ferrari was 344k, so its over 700k for one of those?  I wouldn't even look its direction for that.

Ok, well at least they can claim it costs less than a Ferrari!  I believe they are in the 300k range.

Unfortunately I only know what a loaf of bread costs, and not super cars.

I'll post some photos of the print samples I got

[blue moon]

Real question, how come almost nobody is talking about the Maverick?

Because it costs more than a couple of your sports cars combined!  There is a place in Bellingham that got a Maverick that I've sent a few orders to, the first production order is actually in the works right now.  Imprintmaker.com, the samples I got (I did 12 images and two of each so I could do wash tests), generally looked pretty nice, and feel good for DTG.  However, the prints on fleece looked terrible, there was some issues with under bases poking out, and there is a known issue with spotting of the white on large areas that for the price I think is unacceptable being sold before that is addressed.

And, you still have to pretreat separate which is nice with the Kornits that pre-treat is one step (are they still doing that?) but may also be why their prints aren't as crisp.

Because everyone into this is talking about the new commercial grade Epson.

Do you know anyone that has one of these that does contract printing?  I'd be interested to send some work to an Epson printer to see the quality.  I really want DTG to be viable, but right now I'd rather find a network to outsource to so they can deal with the headaches, a $50 new setup for DTG orders which includes a pre-sample I think is fine for my customer, and that could cover shipping both from the vendor and drop shipped to the customer, and then a 24 piece minimum, as I don't want to deal with low quantities.

Given the state of the world right now our on demand business has been growing substantially, and I think as the world returns to normal that need for on demand printing is going to stay. That's why we are looking at options to get our price per piece down and trying to find the most efficient machine.

If you look at all the larger on demand printers, they have more of the lesser cost printers, since redundancy is important.  I think if the new Epson printers are like 40K, you could get 6 for the price of the Maverick, or 12 for the cost of a higher end Kornit, then you have a single operator running 3 machines, you'll have more throughput, lesser cost of entry and you can scale up as necessary, and when one goes down, the others stay running.

I think that DTG is best suited for on demand printing and split shipping, because even if the prints aren't great, they are generally split shipping to multiple people, so rather than one unhappy customer with 48 shirts, you have 48 people with 2 unhappy customers you can just refund and have them keep their shirt and you are still making a product.

The issue with outsourcing is finding reliable places that know quality.

we bought the EPSON and will be doing contract printing, but not ready yet. We have another week or so to dial things in and then all of our capacity is sold until January. We will have the time to do samples and maybe a small number of orders, but nothing serious until the holiday rush is over.

Once we are fully set up, we will offer print on demand with fulfillment. We will be able to tie into your system electronically if needed.

pierre

[blue moon]

Real question, how come almost nobody is talking about the Maverick?

I assume most people doing DTG are on the basic hobbist stuff like the basic epson/brother stuff. But next tier, I dont see any one talking about it.

Bumping this one last time before I give up and let the thread die.

Brandt, to weigh in on your point, I think that most people are starting off with the entry level machines like Brother and Epson because the $300k price tag (don't quote me on that, not sure what the exact cost they're selling it is) on the Maverick and the even higher price tag on Kornit scare people away. Also, the technology has been evolving a lot in the last few years and the market will need some time to catch up. We stayed away from digital for the longest because the print felt like crap, smelt like crap, sometimes looked like crap, etc. and then seeing the improvements in the last couple of years we decided to get a Brother last November. Not because we are a small shop (have 15 auto machines, 3 taggers, full service with fulfillment, embroidery, sewing, the whole shabang) but because the 25k for a brand new brother machine seemed more feasible to get our feet wet on the digital side of the industry.

The Brother machine has worked well for us, we dialed in printing on a lot of substrates and have images looking crisp. The problem is the cost of the ink just isn't efficient for the long term ROI and the speed of the printer is another issue. Given the state of the world right now our on demand business has been growing substantially, and I think as the world returns to normal that need for on demand printing is going to stay. That's why we are looking at options to get our price per piece down and trying to find the most efficient machine.

the new EPSON is not an entry level machine. It is 72"'x 73" (so rather big and requires a lot of floor space) and it prints a full size front in about 45 seconds. It has redundancy built int as well as remote access from the factory service department and other industrial grade features. The cost of ink is much lower than the entry level printers your are thinking about. We are bellow $1 per print in ink as of right now (very early on in setup and testing though). If you get 2 the ink is $140 per liter and you can net over 100 shirts per hour. To get the same from Kornit you will have to pay about 3-4 times as much and will still be fighting the color gamut issues.

3070 can print a full front at really good quality in about 40-45 seconds. That's 80+ full fronts per hour if you don't count loading times. In our initial testing we are seeing/expecting about 50-55 full fronts per hour. If you add in some left chests it will go up. Cost of ink is looking to be right under $1, few pennies under to be more precise, but that is for good quality print. you could get it down to $0.75 if you don't need paper white. This has a lot to do with pretreat though, so your numbers will vary.

List price is $50k, but by the time you are set up you are over $60k. With additional inks and maintenance consumables you are probably looking at $65k. I have a friend who had a factory with many, many Kornits and he says there is no comparison. It is not even close!

pierre

[rusty]

[/quote]

we bought the EPSON and will be doing contract printing, but not ready yet. We have another week or so to dial things in and then all of our capacity is sold until January. We will have the time to do samples and maybe a small number of orders, but nothing serious until the holiday rush is over.

Once we are fully set up, we will offer print on demand with fulfillment. We will be able to tie into your system electronically if needed.

pierre
[/quote]

I would like to know when you are ready with this! Happy to sen anything your way come spring.

[zanegun08]

3070 can print a full front at really good quality in about 40-45 seconds. That's 80+ full fronts per hour if you don't count loading times. In our initial testing we are seeing/expecting about 50-55 full fronts per hour. If you add in some left chests it will go up. Cost of ink is looking to be right under $1.
List price is $50k, but by the time you are set up you are over $60k. With additional inks and maintenance consumables you are probably looking at $65k. I have a friend who had a factory with many, many Kornits and he says there is no comparison. It is not even close!

What are you using to pretreat? 

How do you like the quality of prints? 

Are you doing mostly photographic stuff, or is still a lot of the work more spot colors?

Who did you purchase this through?