Rutland WB99 Officially Discontinued

[ZooCity]

We knew it was coming at some point, extra fun to have to deal with this at the moment!

What is everyone who has used the system moving to?  I'm not sure how many people are currently with it, I think ebscreen may be the only other user on here I recall. 

Matsui pigments look like our future. We currently use their bases and modifiers exclusively and are very happy with them.  I'm sure the PCs will also be up to snuff.  However, I've heard from users in the past that the formulations we're kinda awful.  Have also heard that this has been brought to Matsui's attention and efforts made to improve.   Would really like to hear from Matsui users if any are on here.

Wilflex aquarius/zodiac is the other option but they don't have a super solid track record with sticking with a WB system.  We'd like to not do this again for a good amount of time.

[zanegun08]

Interesting, I sent a photo of this thread to my guy in inks right now, and he said "Wooowwww".  We are deep on inventory of the WB99, this will be interesting.

I've been interested in the Matsui that "follows the Pantone book" for their formulas, although I think it's an RFU vs Pigment, but guess we will have to figure out what to do as well for discharge / water base.

Is there an official announcement online you could link?

[ericheartsu]

we use 95% matsui.

I am not the ink expert at Night Owls, but feel free to ask me any questions, and I'll get Val to answer them. Or you can email me, and i'll connect you.

Val's built her own formula guide, and we get really close on all of our inks.

Matsui is also beta testing a new software. Well they just sent it to us, so i guess we are beta testing it.

[Jepaul]

we use 95% matsui.

I am not the ink expert at Night Owls, but feel free to ask me any questions, and I'll get Val to answer them. Or you can email me, and i'll connect you.

Val's built her own formula guide, and we get really close on all of our inks.

Matsui is also beta testing a new software. Well they just sent it to us, so i guess we are beta testing it.

What are you an expert at?

[TCT]

The main thing I don't like about the Matsui pigments is that they are really concentrated. Not sure if you dealt with that with the Rutland ones or not? When mixing super small amounts of ink, usually to test a color for example, 1 tiny drop 'effs up the color because of how concentrated they are. Suppose it goes both ways though, it is nicer for mixing larger amounts of ink though so you are not there for 1 min adding yellow or something. 

Matsui is also beta testing a new software. Well they just sent it to us, so i guess we are beta testing it.

Is it any good? I feel like they asked for a bunch of input of what people are looking for or would like to see, we gave them a list. But the this thing called covid started going around and I figured they back burnered it.  Do they have any cool new features?

[cclaud3]

It looks like some of the brite discharge base recipes use Alpha trans white in addition to the base & pigments which is new to me. Will be testing some of those soon

[ZooCity]

Zane- like with their discontinuation of the HSA product I don't believe there was much warning given.  Our supplier was told about it when they placed a restock order and they then reached out to us. 

Eric- my ink person and I would love to talk to Val if they have time.

Alex- Rutland WB99 is high concentration as well.  It hasn't been an issue for us but yep, it's a little surgical blending certain mixes accurately.  Good scale helps.

There is a new button in the OMX to download your custom formulae.  It outputs to an .xls with each row a component of the formula. That wasn't there a few weeks ago when we asked about export, definitely appreciated now!

I would have appreciated it if Wilflex/Avient had made simulations of WB99 formulae using their horoscope mixing system that you could utilize via IMS during transition.  We would have been an easy convert there since we already use IMS.

The Mastsui software I used yesterday was an online version and was incomplete. 

Matsui does have some RFU but I feel like those have come/gone a lot over the years.  The Neo PCs seem the more stable system to bet on and nearest to what we are used to.  I'm not sure we could get by with an RFU system having used PC for so long and having the color demands we do.  Last I inquired, the current (maybe upcoming?) RFU system is more of an "MSA" ink; medium solids, not as high solids as the HSA but more than traditional WB inks.  We pretty much stick to traditional WB here except for the 301 WB White we run for spot color is like the above and has a little more body.

[ebscreen]

I'd thought this would be coming for quite some time, the notices a month ago in the Rutland software
migrating to IMS made it more real, and our distributor recently confirmed. Late stage capitalism is super cool.

We'll be going to Matsui as well. We've used it in the past, there was some things we liked and some we didn't,
but like with anything you find your way to make it work.

One thing I didn't like was the different bases for high/low mesh. Ideally we'd continue to use CCI D-Base
and the Matsui pigments, anyone using that combo?

[ZooCity]

We already use Matsui bases and additives exclusively and don't run a different base for high or low mesh, we use 301 C Clear for all our WB printing, up through 330/30 mesh. 

What would be the advantage of the different base particle sizes?

[ebscreen]

Sorry, should have mentioned I was referring to their discharge bases.

The low mesh version is much brighter, behaves similarly to the CCI D-base,
but wasn't really pleasant through higher meshes (duh) when we tested.

The high mesh version just wasn't very bright in my experience.

D-base covered all the bases for us so yeah...

[ZooCity]

Oh we only one DC base too, lol.   Brite DC Base.  Due to the dye and fabric inconsistencies we moved away from straight DC, another story, but the Brite DC Base is our UB on most WB prints and prints through the 330.   Have we been needlessly punishing ourselves?

[ebscreen]

Got it, that's kinda what I figured. Being mostly contract we don't have the luxury of deciding how,
so we do what we're asked and if the garments suck not my chair not my problem.

I don't know if the Brite was out when we were testing, certainly wasn't recommended to me when I asked anyway.
Spec sheet suggests top mesh of 180 but we all know what suggested means. Good to know there's
a viable base compatible with the pigments.

I'm gonna laugh when PolyOne realizes all the Rutland buyers didn't flock to Aquarius or zodiac or what the hell ever.
Oasis?

[zanegun08]

I'm gonna laugh when PolyOne realizes all the Rutland buyers didn't flock to Aquarius or zodiac or what the hell ever.  Oasis?

We are probably going to Matsui.  Definitely not the Aquarius.  Although I'm not laughing as I'd rather just continue with what we have been using.

[ebscreen]

I'm gonna laugh when PolyOne realizes all the Rutland buyers didn't flock to Aquarius or zodiac or what the hell ever.  Oasis?

We are probably going to Matsui.  Definitely not the Aquarius.  Although I'm not laughing as I'd rather just continue with what we have been using.

True that. Our distributor is pissed too cause now they inherit the zodiac but no one wants it due to Polyone's history.

[johnmageescreenprinter]

Howdy, I work at Avient (FRMLY: Polyone).

I apologize for the hassle, Operating a company during Covid is hard enough right now and unfortunately that has affected us as well.

The reasons we discontinued WB-99 are as follows:
The Zodiac line is meant to be our collection of our most environmentally friendly products. It would not make sense to continue to offer WB-99 while striving to control our environmental impact with better products.

The Aquarius water base system within the Zodiac offers APEO free bases and pigments. Yes, you can use your remaining WB-99 pigments with the Aquarius bases, that was something we had to take into consideration.

Higher pantone accuracy.

Concentrated pigment system consisting of only 15 pigments including Fluo's.

Better printability than WB99, better discharge that does not require any ZFS adjustments, Better wash fastness.

I'd really encourage you all to check it out, Danny at Denver Print House has been producing excellent prints with it after testing every waterbase he could get his hands on. I think someone mentioned that we have Jeanette Hardy previously of Magna.
  For what it's worth, when I saw the Zodiac system for the first time I was so impressed I asked if I could be moved from sales to work on her team. I now work in applications development and support for all the brands with a focus on Zodiac products.

We are very passionate about producing the best water base ink system possible, and equally passionate about producing it in the U.S.A.
This is the best American water base screen printing ink system ever created. I think we are also the best internationally- but I clearly have a bias in that direction!

Our team within Avient that works on Zodiac products is very passionate and we really take a lot of pride in our work.
Again, I would urge you to try our system, speak to people who have, and to buy American.

Please let me know if there is anything I can assist you with. I know it's a pain when a company switches their systems, it's the last thing we want to do most of the time. But we had to do it, and we will have to continue to make changes in the future as technology advances, materials change, or become unavailable.