The first sign of trouble ...

[GraphicDisorder]

My best one is "It's just like an M&R only cheaper"!

Becareful you are sounding like a screen printing fascist!......

I almost spit up, lol.

Never mind that the market has free control to buy from whom they want, people buy brands.  Some people do not understand in anyway the value of a brand or an established reputation for excellence. 

[mk162]

Command, you are absolutely right, but a lot of those same people will argue to the death that it is usable artwork as is.  They have no idea what is needed, just that what they supplied should work.

It's like taking your car in to be painted and telling them you did the prep work, so it has to be good.  And then not letting them bill you for what actually needs to be done to do the job right. (This is also coming from a guy that does his own bodywork and has gotten compliments from the body shop)

[Dottonedan]

How about when someone sends you vector artwork...And it looks just fine until you click on it and learn that it is a "Group of 49,567 objects"...

HAHA!  This is when you COPY and PASTE into Photoshop on a new layer and begin to separate.

[Dottonedan]

I always laugh when these customer-bringing-artwork-that-isn't-really-artwork stories come up. They never fail to deliver the funny.

But consider this... these people off the street aren't supposed to know raster from vector or Powerpoint from Corel Draw. That's your job. The general public doesn't deal with this stuff daily like us. They are bringing their stuff to you so that you can solve their problems.Every napkin logo and web banner jpeg is an opportunity. You should welcome them. Most of you have art departments, right? Don't miss chances to make some extra money on art charges.


"Well the customer doesn't want to pay for art. Well, if I bid too high the customer will take the order elsewhere." Bullsheet. Guess what, your customer doesn't want to pay for screens, setup or the shirts themselves, either. What other business gives skilled labor away for free? Try getting free artwork from an offset printer sometime. No, if they won't pay, let them take their order to the sucker who gives away their time and skill.

Explain the extra charges up front and bill them for it. Educate these people on how printing works so they know why it's just as expensive to print 2 shirts as it is to print 2 dozen, even if it means showing them around your shop. If you lose the order, so what? Let your competitors deal with them.

Z,  This is a very good,  no, GREAT reply!  So good, that I wish we had awards for different categories like FIRST GREAT POST OF THE YEAR award and GREATEST POST OF THE ENTIRE YEAR award.[/color]

[Command-Z]

@ 3Deep: Nothing worthwhile is ever easy. Is it easier to work for free?

@ Froggy Frog: If you would use it daily, that right there justifies the expense. $500-1800 is PEANUTS to pay for software that does what the Adobe CS does. Animators, architects and engineers pay TENS of thousands for their software apps. Besides, I'm sure many of these self-appointed "experts and artists" are using bootleg or stolen software anyway.

@ Ripcord: Yes, it often doesn't make sense to charge for art when the order seems to go more smoothly without that extra line item... but the customer won't value what he doesn't have to pay for. Basically, you're teaching people that what I do for a living isn't worth anything. If I were the uppity type, I'd be offended.   

@mk162: Arguing with customers is a waste of time. If educating... showing them isn't working, send them to your competitor. Let them stand there and argue while you're spending time on work you actually get paid to do. Don't waste time racing to the bottom.

@Dot: Thank you! But... it's only January 3rd. Plenty of time for someone else to post the "post of the year!"  Like that poker game when I had 4 aces... on the second hand of the night.

[Frog]

@ Froggy Frog: If you would use it daily, that right there justifies the expense. $500-1800 is PEANUTS to pay for software that does what the Adobe CS does. Animators, architects and engineers pay TENS of thousands for their software apps. Besides, I'm sure many of these self-appointed "experts and artists" are using bootleg or stolen software anyway.

two things. Not attacking the purchase or even price of "Adobe's CS"

I was merely pointing out that I as opposed to a boutique baseball bat manufacturer (the proud owner of the suite in my post) would have much more justification for ownership. But you knew that.
I, however, am quite content with my new Corel Suite, and do fine with my older versions of "Adobe" (lol) for my every day work.

That said, I also do not own a state of the art computerized lathe for making baseball bats. So he is two up on humble me.

[mk162]

I guess I didn't mean arguing.  Some people just cannot be educated.  Period.  And you are right, at that point it is worth it to send them down the street.

[tpitman]

This discussion makes me think that, aside from the convenience decent software gives those of us with the background to use it intelligently and skillfully, there's something to be said about the illustration and graphic design business in the pre-personal computer era, where when someone brought you crappy, unusable art or mechanicals with pasted text that looked like ransom notes, they had a tougher time arguing that it was, in fact, "camera-ready" . . .
Now everyone's a "pro" with the ability to crank out the most god-awful stuff in programs costing hundreds if not thousands . . . . Likewise, just because I've managed to learn enough about Excel to cobble up spreadsheets for my own use doesn't make me an accountant.

[Ripcord]

@ Ripcord: Yes, it often doesn't make sense to charge for art when the order seems to go more smoothly without that extra line item... but the customer won't value what he doesn't have to pay for. Basically, you're teaching people that what I do for a living isn't worth anything. If I were the uppity type, I'd be offended.   

I don't think of it as doing anything for free, it's just one step in the overall process of completing the project. If I can redraw the art, burn the screens, print and deliver the job in a day and make a profit of a few hundred bucks, it's been a good day. Redoing the art not only saves me the time of explaining to the customer why it's necessary (time which I truly can't charge for), it keeps the job moving so I can finish it and get paid.

Also, if I do the art myself, I can tweak it in ways that make the registration and printing process easier and faster.

I've encountered some customers over the years (while working for other companies) that were ready to pay for a press run but canceled the project because they were told their artwork wasn't ready and needed to be redone. Some eventually returned with the proper art, and others went elsewhere, ostensibly to a printer who was willing to work with what they already had...

[ZooCity]

Just make your artwork a product and things go smoother.  We roll-in a half an hour to the pricing and charge modestly beyond that.  In the end they get a logo kit with proper files out of it for a very reasonable price.  Most are quite happy with it so long as you don't approach it as an add-on charge or fee.  Nobody likes seeing an extra $35-120 tacked onto the end of an invoice for anything.  Separate the art from the printing. 

*a bonus is that you've already done most of your pre-press, specific to the job, if you built or re-built the art*

If you have someone in CS that admittedly doesn't know what they're doing give them some guidelines to use spot colors exclusively, etc.  It doesn't always work but can at least ease the pain. 

The last thing you want is to go ahead and print with that .gif thumb right-clicked and saved off a website and say "I told you so".  You've just made a bunch of crappo shirts that nobody is going to wear, probably lost a client and made yourself and them look bad in the end.  Refusing to print due to bad files is along the same lines although, I feel, quite appropriate for contract work.  Pierre, you are a patient man, I'd tell those fools to start paying up or go get an artist. 

FYI, there's a whole clutch of highly functional, free to use/open-source, design software out there.  It's slow and not suited to production work but does most of the basics admirably.  If someone is adamant about doing it themselves, give them some guidelines and send some links. 

[ZooCity]

This discussion makes me think that, aside from the convenience decent software gives those of us with the background to use it intelligently and skillfully, there's something to be said about the illustration and graphic design business in the pre-personal computer era, where when someone brought you crappy, unusable art or mechanicals with pasted text that looked like ransom notes, they had a tougher time arguing that it was, in fact, "camera-ready" . . .
Now everyone's a "pro" with the ability to crank out the most god-awful stuff in programs costing hundreds if not thousands . . . . Likewise, just because I've managed to learn enough about Excel to cobble up spreadsheets for my own use doesn't make me an accountant.

I concur.  I've had embarrassed clients come back to me after saying "I'll just do it in PS on my own." and coming up with a steaming pile of pixels instead of actual art.  I learned in on this trade on the software but I'd do it all by hand if I had my druthers.  We need the software and the machines to expedite the process, not replace it. 

[blue moon]

  Pierre, you are a patient man, I'd tell those fools to start paying up or go get an artist. 

It was cost of getting new customers. They are slowly being converted to paying for the art charges as the time to play with their stuff is not available and more. So, yes I did exactly as you suggested and for the most part they understand and there are no issues.  The good thing is, all the new customers are learning this in advance. . .

pierre

[Frog]

Charging for art work re-creation, or even burying it in the price, or throwing it in (ostensibly) eating the time is much more justifiable on real production runs than the onesies and twosies and ultra small runs that transfers and DTG attract, and are in fact, the target market.
On these, I throw in five or so minutes which is usually what it takes to crop and add text to a photo. Anything else, well it sometimes starts a thread like this. 

[244]

My best one is "It's just like an M&R only cheaper"!

Becareful you are sounding like a screen printing fascist!......

LOL! It never ends!

[jsheridan]

I say just gimme what you got and I'll do what I need to to get the job printed. Also, now that I alone possess the vector artwork it makes it more difficult for them to shop around when it's time for a reprint.

This is how I like to do things. Just give me what you have and we'll go from there. If you don't have anything, I can help with that to.