Who has the best bang for the buck in autos?

[GraphicDisorder]

This thread is great. 

I want to chime in on three points.  We're a manual shop.  Small, 3-4 employee operation with under $200k in sales per year.  That number is deceptive though because only about 50-60% of that dollar figure is custom print work, the rest is pre-print retail sales that have a much higher margin or less work for the dollar amount. 

This year I made the business mistake of investing in people instead of automated print equipment. I would argue that my choice of staff may have effected this heavily but it doesn't degrade the point made earlier that an equipment payment and a machine is better than payroll and HR. It's just the way of things. Now, I've spent my equity upon staff, never to be reclaimed and have none for the auto until later on.  Upon finally moving to our new space in the next month, we're ready for automation in most every way and the press would be a drag and drop into our workflow more or less.  When getting mid-sized orders we do have to battle against the clock to keep up with production printing manually, sometimes you just can't win that fight without going unpaid hours and pulling late or all-nighters.  I wish I had spent the money that I now see as wasted on payroll and the professional fees associated with the business structure, etc. I was creating on an auto press instead.  It would have changed my position for the better in many, many ways.  So +1 for that argument.  If you're reading this and have the equity, get the damn machine.  As others have said, even if you think you're a smaller, slower shop, like GraphicDisorder here, the machine will pay for itself in short time.  Don't make my mistake. 

I agree.  We do a good bit more than that per year with just 2 people and more equipment.  I am not saying it works for everyone, but I fit us to a T.  We did all we can do and we have hired now.  But I don't think I would do it any different if I had to do it over.  I wouldn't want to be in your spot with more mouths to feed without the equipment to make that possible. 

Had our press since Feb and quoting software since March (makes it easy to track what I have done on the press), and it did us well into 6 figures in business off of it just running probably average 3-6 business days a month.  Sure the big time guys are looking at me going your press should be running every day, your right, but that doesn't mean I can't run it like I do and turn a profit.  We are having our best month ever, and its not even over yet. 

What I do know is I have the capability to run a lot more volume through here, just add hands.  Which frankly is a faster process than adding machines.  So I have the machines out of the way now, we simply sell a little harder and hire some more hands and it should all become used very heavy.  I think I have all the right equipment in here to do several times what we are doing per year right now just by adding hands. 

Another way to look at it, you can hire a auto for half to a 1/3 what some employees might cost you, at least ones with any real skill. 

[blue moon]

actually, as a small business, adding meaningful and competent employees is significantly harder than buying equipment. I was told you have to go through 8 ppl before you find one that really fits.

So while having ppl there is not necessarily a standard way of doing it, it is not a wrong way either. People are by far the most important asset in any company. Try taking any one of us here away from the company and see what happens. Lose a press and you can get another one!

pierre

[David005]

Well I have pictured my 1988 6 color gauntlet and my 10 color sportsman ex. And wouldn't trade neither one for another brand. I step out of box a lot ,but when it comes to feeding my family ,I know my presses won't let me down. As far as tri loc, I've seriously seriously been looking into it. But my guys haven't been to bad at setting up.

[David005]

Thats true, But what about having good printers that are quick great workers but get furious when a job keeps coming out reg. Then Im getting upset that jobs aren't coming off press quick enough. Gotta have the right tools for the right staff.

[GraphicDisorder]

actually, as a small business, adding meaningful and competent employees is significantly harder than buying equipment. I was told you have to go through 8 ppl before you find one that really fits.

So while having ppl there is not necessarily a standard way of doing it, it is not a wrong way either. People are by far the most important asset in any company. Try taking any one of us here away from the company and see what happens. Lose a press and you can get another one!

pierre

I am in no way saying people aren't important.  You misunderstood.

My first employee I am hiring in at around 40k a year, I know him well, I know his capabilities and I know what he will bring to the table.  I found finding a guy of his caliber easier than deciding/finding/buying equipment.  I am sure for some its hard to find the right people, im sure down the road finding people may be a bump in the road or a revolving door for awhile.  But its not always like that either.  Nothing is that cut and dry.  Just giving my experience. 

Having the right tool for the job is often more important than having the right person for the job.  I am not saying its always that way.  All I know is I was a pretty shitty printer on a 1 station ebay press, I was a lot better printer on a Vastex Manual, and today I am a pretty awesome printer on a M&R Sportsman.  I haven't changed much, my tools have.  Food for thought.

[blue moon]

actually, as a small business, adding meaningful and competent employees is significantly harder than buying equipment. I was told you have to go through 8 ppl before you find one that really fits.

So while having ppl there is not necessarily a standard way of doing it, it is not a wrong way either. People are by far the most important asset in any company. Try taking any one of us here away from the company and see what happens. Lose a press and you can get another one!

pierre

I am in no way saying people aren't important.  You misunderstood.

My first employee I am hiring in at around 40k a year, I know him well, I know his capabilities and I know what he will bring to the table.  I found finding a guy of his caliber easier than deciding/finding/buying equipment.  I am sure for some its hard to find the right people, im sure down the road finding people may be a bump in the road or a revolving door for awhile.  But its not always like that either.  Nothing is that cut and dry.  Just giving my experience. 

Having the right tool for the job is often more important than having the right person for the job.  I am not saying its always that way.  All I know is I was a pretty shitty printer on a 1 station ebay press, I was a lot better printer on a Vastex Manual, and today I am a pretty awesome printer on a M&R Sportsman.  I haven't changed much, my tools have.  Food for thought.

if you allow me, I'll disagree with you. This is not to say that I am right and you are wrong, just that my opinion, based on my experiences is different and thus I draw different conclusions. WHat works for me is not bery likely to work for anybody else as we are all different . . .

First, wait till you have the employee for a year before you judge him. Your opinions of ppl change as you spend time with them and you get to really know them. I've had best friends turn into enemies and acquaintances turn into best friends. It is almost (at least for me) impossible to predict what somebody will be like long term. I do remember you and Shelly saying he is a good friend and that you go back long waays, so hopefully it works out for you! I'll keep my fingers crossed for you.

Second, I will say that you as printer grew and changed. If somebody gave you that nice and shiny auto when you were starting it would do you no good. But as time went by, you learned more and can take advantage of the god equipment. Chances are, your prints on that cheap ebay press would look pretty good with what you know now!

pierre

[blue moon]

Well I have pictured my 1988 6 color gauntlet and my 10 color sportsman ex. And wouldn't trade neither one for another brand. I step out of box a lot ,but when it comes to feeding my family ,I know my presses won't let me down. As far as tri loc, I've seriously seriously been looking into it. But my guys haven't been to bad at setting up.

Dave, congrats on the new press!!! You got a very nice piece of equipment, it should be very exciting!
As far as the trilock, it should be your next purchase. No matter how you twist it, setting up the jobs in half the time and reducing the frustration is the best investment you can make now. Pull the trigger and you can thank us all later!

pierre

[GraphicDisorder]

actually, as a small business, adding meaningful and competent employees is significantly harder than buying equipment. I was told you have to go through 8 ppl before you find one that really fits.

So while having ppl there is not necessarily a standard way of doing it, it is not a wrong way either. People are by far the most important asset in any company. Try taking any one of us here away from the company and see what happens. Lose a press and you can get another one!

pierre

I am in no way saying people aren't important.  You misunderstood.

My first employee I am hiring in at around 40k a year, I know him well, I know his capabilities and I know what he will bring to the table.  I found finding a guy of his caliber easier than deciding/finding/buying equipment.  I am sure for some its hard to find the right people, im sure down the road finding people may be a bump in the road or a revolving door for awhile.  But its not always like that either.  Nothing is that cut and dry.  Just giving my experience. 

Having the right tool for the job is often more important than having the right person for the job.  I am not saying its always that way.  All I know is I was a pretty shitty printer on a 1 station ebay press, I was a lot better printer on a Vastex Manual, and today I am a pretty awesome printer on a M&R Sportsman.  I haven't changed much, my tools have.  Food for thought.

if you allow me, I'll disagree with you. This is not to say that I am right and you are wrong, just that my opinion, based on my experiences is different and thus I draw different conclusions. WHat works for me is not bery likely to work for anybody else as we are all different . . .

First, wait till you have the employee for a year before you judge him. Your opinions of ppl change as you spend time with them and you get to really know them. I've had best friends turn into enemies and acquaintances turn into best friends. It is almost (at least for me) impossible to predict what somebody will be like long term. I do remember you and Shelly saying he is a good friend and that you go back long waays, so hopefully it works out for you! I'll keep my fingers crossed for you.

Second, I will say that you as printer grew and changed. If somebody gave you that nice and shiny auto when you were starting it would do you no good. But as time went by, you learned more and can take advantage of the god equipment. Chances are, your prints on that cheap ebay press would look pretty good with what you know now!

pierre

Yes our new hire is a long time friend, over 10 years now.  He works in the print industry but not in textiles.  He is VERY good at art, in fact smokes me and Shelly and most would consider us very good.  Hes 10x as good as us.  See im not just hiring a printer, in fact I am not even hiring him as a printer.  He's a all around guy, used to screen print on his own, has run our embroidery machines in a pinch, does amazing artwork, and so on.  He brings a lot to the table and is a guy that Id trust to run the ship if I was sick or needed to take a week off to live.  There will be challenges I am sure working with one of my best friends.  I know a lot about those, I work with my GF day in and day out, and that is tough.  But yes we had this talk with him and we crossed off the important stuff like work is work and play is play.  I was confident we both can treat it as such or I wouldn't have made that move.  After all I could have hired someone much cheaper.  He's got talent.  I think you will see us do a lot of bigger things once we have him here.  Maybe I am wrong, lets hope not. 

As for printing now on a ebay press?  Sure it would be better now, but that's not exactly what I meant.  When we had that press we had shitty exposure unit and everything else that supported it.  Tools are VERY important to a job.  You know it and I know it.  I am not saying its end all be all.  I am saying mostly we grew because of the tools.  We are not that experienced of a printer.  I probably print in a year what some of you print in a month or less even.  However my tools have allowed me to move up in skill quick, because the tools are so easy to use.  Remember I am a design that prints, not a printer that designs.  It's kind of like changing your own oil.  Sure you can do it with nearly no tools, but a oil filter wrench and a nice oil bucket sure makes it easier.

[ZooCity]

I hope I didn't come across as de-valuing people.  I actually far over-value most folks or so I'm told.  If I told some of you the options I've given the people I worked with over the last year most of you would want to slap me.  I'm a very poor business person in many respects but I do strive to be a reasonable human.  There's nothing fun about being righteous and broke though. 

But, as a business owner from what I have experienced, I agree with GD on equipment first, then staff. 

I also agree with Pierre on the time you need for staff to settle in as well as the difficulty in finding the right people.

And you can do good work and be profitable with a manual operation, I have in the past and was quite happy with our numbers, it's just very important to sense when a transition is made with your revenue and take the right step at the right time.  I failed that test but learned a hell of a lot.

*one last thought is that while I say equip first, then hiring, it is a lot easier to change the size of your workforce that it is to change your equipment.  but again, autos with high re-sale value will be paid off past the point they would sell for quickly so it's still a smaller risk than it might seem.

[David005]

We should take a tally equipment first or employees

[ebscreen]

Equipment with no doubt.

[blue moon]

We should take a tally equipment first or employees

I have gone the equipment route, but I think employee route is just as good under some circumstances. Nah, the more I think about it more it seems that the equipment should come before employees. But then, you cna let go of the employee and you can't stop paying for the equipment . . . I don't know, I am confused!

pierre

[GraphicDisorder]

I look at equipment in how easy is it to pay for, you can make equipment payment with profit from a day or so running.  So I would suggest if you can't make that work then maybe rethink being in business all together. 

Most employees would cost more than most equipment. Which one can you see best return on investment?

[royster13]

The problem for most folks is you can pay for employees by the week without "pre-approval" but getting financing on some equipment is tough.....

[ZooCity]

The problem for most folks is you can pay for employees by the week without "pre-approval" but getting financing on some equipment is tough.....

Is it?  I had planned on using a specific SBA loan {504 I believe} for equipment upgrades/space improvements when I felt the time was right.  It's a one-shot deal where you get the loan for a specific piece of equip I believe, still need to research it more.  The concept with the loan is you put a typically 10% down payment on the machine loan, then there's the equity remaining in it's used market value.  For the risk, the gov't takes a chunk of the risk off the lender, and the lender shoulders the rest.  So long as you have a reasonable credit history and a real need for the machine it doesn't seem like a stretch to ask for such a thing.

This gets back to those M&R machines and they're used market value.  Take a look at the example I made up off the top of my head below. The repayment period is up to 10 yrs on the aforementioned loan for equip.  Below is the way my primitive brain is seeing this:

Press                40k
Down pmt.            - 4k
--------------------------------
Loan amt.              36k (more with fees)
Resell Value             - 20k
--------------------------------
Risk                           16k

SBA 40%                  -16k

Lender Risk                0

Again, not drawn to scale. 

Payments on the machine, @ 8% would be something like $485 per month.  Show somebody who services 504 loans you are consistently retaining $500 / month in profit and seems like they'd help you get that press.... and be smiling all the way as, if this example is accurate at all, the servicers of these loans are making loot with little risk. 

I used 50% of new price for the resell value, which is what lenders do.  But we all know that, in a few years when you've outgrown the machine or decided to close your business, whatever, that the press, if it was M&R is going to fetch a little more than 50% of buy price more than likely if it's well-kept.   Correct me if I'm wrong, but I figured this is a price you could fetch a loaded Diamondback XL 8/10 setup for which would likely sell for as a package for more than 20k in a few years.