Who has the best bang for the buck in autos?

[alan802]

I didn't think the vastex system worked very well at all.  My own DIY, made with JB Weld worked better.  It didn't look better, but it performed better.  I never set up one job on the vastex that was even remotely close to be ready to go.  Something was not right with ours.  I think the stops were way off from the pallet jig to the FPU, but I tore it up long before I ever tried to figure out why it didn't work.

As far as not using carrier sheets, that's the way I roll.  I hate them and won't use a system that has them.  I'll modify it somehow and still get it to work.  I use an FPU like the MHM with the triloc stop points and a pallet jig just like the triloc and it works great.  I've set up many jobs, 6,7,8 color jobs that needed no micro work at all.

[Alex M]

Dave -what could make your set ups faster? It seems the slowest part for us is taking the platen off the press, putting on the one with the stops, and switching back. I am working on a solution for that today. I think ditching the carrier sheets is a huge step forward, I wish we could have the films come out of the printer in reg so I could have zero time registering the film on my glass.

Sorry to derail the thread a bit!
The quickest way to do this is a CTS system. I know they are still expensive as far as the capital investment goes, but when you do the ROI it will pay itself quickly.

[alan802]

I can't wait to go DTS.  DTS with a a good pallet jig for the press and you'll have the ultimate in pre registration systems...I hope.

I will have to wait a bit longer for our DTS though, we have made a rather large purchase recently so I'll have to wait another year or so.

[244]

I would venture a guess that through the manufacturers or distributors, you could get the name and address of a helpful and willing shop somewhere that is running an example of just about any current press in which you were interested.

Ill let anyone (well almost) that's interested in M&R come not only see ours, but use it.  Print some screens, we can even shoot them here if someone wanted.

Pay it forward.

One thing this post has missed is the residual value of our presses and to that effect I have customers looking to purchase 2000 and up  M&R automatics including six colors. Any for sale or want to trade in. We can help with the purchasers or put you directly in touch with them.

[Screened Gear]

I would venture a guess that through the manufacturers or distributors, you could get the name and address of a helpful and willing shop somewhere that is running an example of just about any current press in which you were interested.

Ill let anyone (well almost) that's interested in M&R come not only see ours, but use it.  Print some screens, we can even shoot them here if someone wanted.

Pay it forward.

One thing this post has missed is the residual value of our presses and to that effect I have customers looking to purchase 2000 and up  M&R automatics including six colors. Any for sale or want to trade in. We can help with the purchasers or put you directly in touch with them.

Rich,

I was about to post about used presses. The best bang for your buck has to be a used press brand not important. I know this will start somthing but it is true. In this "Bad Economy" You can pick up a used press for next to nothing. It can be scarry buying a used press because you don't know what your getting and there is no warrentee. I got my press used and it did need some repairs but the cost was nothing compaired to a new press.

Jon

[GraphicDisorder]

I would venture a guess that through the manufacturers or distributors, you could get the name and address of a helpful and willing shop somewhere that is running an example of just about any current press in which you were interested.

Ill let anyone (well almost) that's interested in M&R come not only see ours, but use it.  Print some screens, we can even shoot them here if someone wanted.

Pay it forward.

One thing this post has missed is the residual value of our presses and to that effect I have customers looking to purchase 2000 and up  M&R automatics including six colors. Any for sale or want to trade in. We can help with the purchasers or put you directly in touch with them.

I hope we continue to grow like we are, ill be looking to trade in or sell my Sporty for a CHIII

[244]

I would venture a guess that through the manufacturers or distributors, you could get the name and address of a helpful and willing shop somewhere that is running an example of just about any current press in which you were interested.

Ill let anyone (well almost) that's interested in M&R come not only see ours, but use it.  Print some screens, we can even shoot them here if someone wanted.

Pay it forward.

One thing this post has missed is the residual value of our presses and to that effect I have customers looking to purchase 2000 and up  M&R automatics including six colors. Any for sale or want to trade in. We can help with the purchasers or put you directly in touch with them.

Rich,

I was about to post about used presses. The best bang for your buck has to be a used press brand not important. I know this will start somthing but it is true. In this "Bad Economy" You can pick up a used press for next to nothing. It can be scarry buying a used press because you don't know what your getting and there is no warrentee. I got my press used and it did need some repairs but the cost was nothing compaired to a new press.

Jon

I don't agree with the statement brand not important and maybe that is because I am bias but I don't think so.  We as a manufacturer will take ours in trade and the brand has a higher residual value on the used market. that can be seen by how fast a used Gauntlet or Sportsman last on the forums.

[alan802]

I would venture a guess that through the manufacturers or distributors, you could get the name and address of a helpful and willing shop somewhere that is running an example of just about any current press in which you were interested.

Ill let anyone (well almost) that's interested in M&R come not only see ours, but use it.  Print some screens, we can even shoot them here if someone wanted.

Pay it forward.

One thing this post has missed is the residual value of our presses and to that effect I have customers looking to purchase 2000 and up  M&R automatics including six colors. Any for sale or want to trade in. We can help with the purchasers or put you directly in touch with them.

Rich,

I was about to post about used presses. The best bang for your buck has to be a used press brand not important. I know this will start somthing but it is true. In this "Bad Economy" You can pick up a used press for next to nothing. It can be scarry buying a used press because you don't know what your getting and there is no warrentee. I got my press used and it did need some repairs but the cost was nothing compaired to a new press.

Jon

I don't agree with the statement brand not important and maybe that is because I am bias but I don't think so.  We as a manufacturer will take ours in trade and the brand has a higher residual value on the used market. that can be seen by how fast a used Gauntlet or Sportsman last on the forums.

I wonder how long a 2007-2011 Gauntlet II or Z would last on the used market?  Maybe a couple hours if the price was right, or if the price is high...a day or so.  I don't see too many of those for sale, at least not a late model, I only see the 90's models and they don't last very long.

[Prosperi-Tees]

I think if money is a factor getting into an auto anything is a smart move but if you have the funds available then of course go with current technology. I got a new to me Hopkins manual, 6 color jav, air compressor, chiller and new screens for under 8K. But I can see where the newer technology would help me tremendously.

[GraphicDisorder]

Rich brings up a huge point. 

Resale value is amazing on a M&R, NOBODY can argue that, and that played to our choice as well.  You dont see them sit long. 

[Prosperi-Tees]

Maybe I am wrong here but if I wanted a used press it would be an Anatol at 50% of the new price vs an M&R at 80% of the new price if you planned on keeping it a while. Maybe I shouldn't think that way but I always look at "best bang for the buck"

[Screened Gear]

Sorry guys I didn't mean to make this a defend your press brand post. You guys are way too sensitive about your brand. I said "The best bang for your buck has to be a used press brand not important." Meaning if you buy a used press of the brand you want, buying used is a better bang for your buck. Of course as long as you can get it printing shirts and doesn't cost too much to fix anything that is wrong with it.

[GraphicDisorder]

Maybe I am wrong here but if I wanted a used press it would be an Anatol at 50% of the new price vs an M&R at 80% of the new price if you planned on keeping it a while. Maybe I shouldn't think that way but I always look at "best bang for the buck"

You should buy what makes you happy, if a used Anatol is what you want, by all means jump on it.  But once you buy the Anatol, what will its value be a few more years down the road when your ready to step up?  What would a M&R's be?  Just a honest question you should consider. 

[inkman996]

Maybe I am wrong here but if I wanted a used press it would be an Anatol at 50% of the new price vs an M&R at 80% of the new price if you planned on keeping it a while. Maybe I shouldn't think that way but I always look at "best bang for the buck"

That makes sense only if the Used Anatol was the same quality and same support as the used M&R, there is an obvious reason the Anatol has a lower used price.

[ZooCity]

This thread is great. 

I want to chime in on three points.  We're a manual shop.  Small, 3-4 employee operation with under $200k in sales per year.  That number is deceptive though because only about 50-60% of that dollar figure is custom print work, the rest is pre-print retail sales that have a much higher margin or less work for the dollar amount. 

This year I made the business mistake of investing in people instead of automated print equipment. I would argue that my choice of staff may have effected this heavily but it doesn't degrade the point made earlier that an equipment payment and a machine is better than payroll and HR. It's just the way of things. Now, I've spent my equity upon staff, never to be reclaimed and have none for the auto until later on.  Upon finally moving to our new space in the next month, we're ready for automation in most every way and the press would be a drag and drop into our workflow more or less.  When getting mid-sized orders we do have to battle against the clock to keep up with production printing manually, sometimes you just can't win that fight without going unpaid hours and pulling late or all-nighters.  I wish I had spent the money that I now see as wasted on payroll and the professional fees associated with the business structure, etc. I was creating on an auto press instead.  It would have changed my position for the better in many, many ways.  So +1 for that argument.  If you're reading this and have the equity, get the damn machine.  As others have said, even if you think you're a smaller, slower shop, like GraphicDisorder here, the machine will pay for itself in short time.  Don't make my mistake. 

There was a discussion on the weight or 'heft' of the machines.  As a manual printer I'm quite intimate with the weight differences between presses.  We currently have an Anatol Thunder and this press is built very light, the press heads can't even rest in the down position without a screen loaded, but the design allows for it.  It holds registration just as well as the Chameleon we had before.  Arguably, it holds better parameters then the Chameleon as the lighter weight prevents the platens and heads from getting jarred out of parallel in heavy day to day production. 

Which brings me to my next point.  We made a small profit on the sale of the used Chameleon.  Within a week, multiple buyers were lined up and one made an offer just a few hundred shy of my asking price and they're just tickled shitless with the whole transaction.  The sale of that machine afforded us a brand new press form another brand with the air clamp upgrade on the heads. We did this simply because my printers couldn't deal with the weight of the chameleon, we needed air clamps and we all hate "x-y, anti-droop plate" style micros with a burning passion.  Those are the only reasons we switched as that press was built to print Ts after the apocalypse.  The residual value of M&R machines are miles ahead of any other brand of press out there, it's true.

And this residual value doesn't just come from the build quality of M&R but there total commitment to their products.  They think about the integration of various parts, they keep it simple, use quality components, build it well and they support everything they've ever made like their livelihood depends on it.  Above all, M&R equipment, in my experience is always ready to go.  I spent more time effing around with our brand new Anatol than it would have taken to refurb a used M&R and that's no exaggeration.  Anatol has been super-responsive, easy to work with and have fixed, or are working on fixing, all the issues- I'm happy with the machine, it suits us very well.  But the machine was not ready to print on delivery, it wasn't even registered properly, and was not well thought out or properly manufactured and assembled on many levels.  I expect to make many more replacements and retrofits as time passes.  When it was time for another piece of gear, I went M&R because what's the fun in getting new equip when you have to do so much work on it?  I know that our Red Chili is going to work out of the box more than likely and won't be riddled with puzzling issues.  I know I won't be calling over and over and feeling like a crazy person everytime I find the next silly problem with it.  I know they thoughy about it when they designed it, saw that design through production and will support the hell out of the purchase.  No other company covers all the bases like this.  The argument here is that while some machines may not be too fancy or have the feature set you'd really like to see, if done well, you'll be up and running and rarely down for the long life of it. 

Last point on this lengthy post- I'm all about the most heads you can afford and your space will accommodate.  My ideal print run, regardless of the number of colors would always have a greaser screen in head 1, the option to pre-flash, room for two flashes, cool-downs and a space for a post-flash.  Yeah, that's probably a 16 color press or something but think of the time saved not having to reconfigure heads and how many mis-prints could be avoided will still running fast when printing sleeves or delicates if you could post flash before unloading for example? and the list goes on and on.

Again, this post is the jam.  Good input you all.