Green Galaxy Red Discharge

[Pangea]

The past few months I've had some issues getting a nice DC red using the fusion mixing system and finally decided to shoot them an email with exactly what I was mixing to see if they could spot an issue. They got back to me and let me know their scarlet (Warm Red) pigment isn't discharge stable, something that I wasn't able to find documented anywhere else. Just wanted to post it here incase anyone else was having an issue.

[brandon]

We do not use their system but red pigment and activator tend to not get along chemically. We do tons of red discharge every week (metal shirts) and it is possible but we use different systems. I'll let the chemists on here weigh in on why the chemicals don't get along.

[Colin]

I have not used every system out there - however:

I have not heard of anyone that has found a discharge stable red pigment.  Every system I have encountered or heard of, you have to compensate by adding more.

Red fluorescence seems to be pretty stable, so you can compensate "some" with that pigment.

However, like Brandon said, you can create amazing reds that discharge great.

What color are you trying to match/mix up to?

You can also call me tomorrow at Ryonet if you have any questions.

My name is the same as in my signature.

[Pangea]

We were trying to mix up PMS 185 which is scarlet heavy. I was thrown off by the ink manufacturer telling me that scarlet is not discharge stable and to mix a different color. If I can't mix any color I need with this Pantone system it doesn't do me much good.

Rather than play with it too much I ordered the CCI pigments since a lot of discharge printers seem to have good luck with them and we already use their bases.

[Colin]

Pangea:

Who at Ryonet told you that?  I will need to go educate them.

Shoot me a pm with the email you got.

If you want a really strong red discharge go with PMS 186 or a richer shade.  PMS 185 is not what I would call a bright red. 

You will find the same results with CCI's system.  Give them a call if you want confirmation.

[Cole]

We were trying to mix up PMS 185 which is scarlet heavy. I was thrown off by the ink manufacturer telling me that scarlet is not discharge stable and to mix a different color. If I can't mix any color I need with this Pantone system it doesn't do me much good.

Rather than play with it too much I ordered the CCI pigments since a lot of discharge printers seem to have good luck with them and we already use their bases.

If you plan on using CCI pigments for discharge, just be aware that the BOOST pigments are the only ones suitable for discharge. The regular CMS pigments won't cut it. Those are for mixing regular water base. BOOST pigments have 3x the pigment concentrate in them (so CCI tells me), so they are the ones to be used when mixing pantones for discharge.
CCI offers a ready for use red called Fox Red and I've had pretty good results with it. Might be worth a try. Also a big fan of their T-Charge system. They are ready for use colors that can be used as stand alone inks or can be mixed together to make pantones.
Might want to look into Sericol's discharge red. I see a lot of people talk about that one on here. Haven't tried it myself, but I know that it's a lot of people's "go to" when it comes to rich red discharge.

[brandon]

With discharge reds no matter what system the pigments and the activator are not really friendly. So far anyway. But with correct activator amount, fixer, and mesh selection (not to mention curing of the ink) all of the systems do work. Just every shop is different so you gotta do your research and figure out your shop. And test test test and document

[Pangea]

Pangea:

Who at Ryonet told you that?  I will need to go educate them.

Shoot me a pm with the email you got.

If you want a really strong red discharge go with PMS 186 or a richer shade.  PMS 185 is not what I would call a bright red. 

You will find the same results with CCI's system.  Give them a call if you want confirmation.

Just messaged you. The email came direct from the ink manufacturer so that's why I'm confused that Ryonet says it's fine and they say it isn't. Maybe something got lost between the two companies?

[Colin]

Matt,

I sent that email over to Bobby.  It's probably a language/phrasing thing...

I have honestly NEVER seen any literature, from any ink manufacturer, talking about how red gets chewed up by discharge.  You only find out about it by asking questions.

[ZooCity]

As an FYI, Wilflex did for a time make some non-migrating plastisol PCs, I think they were for printing over a DC base?  Not sure really but I swear that was a thing you could buy at some point.

[Colin]

They are still available.  PRICEY AS HECK, but available.

I heard that they had to do with bleed resistance... The pigments have been around for a long long time.  But they may work for discharge as well.

Matt:  Let me know if the CCI pigments behave any differently when discharged.

[dirkdiggler]

Sericol BS/Red...thats the ticket!!!!!

[Colin]

Dirk - thats is the blue shade of red - not the yellow shade of red.

Hard to hit pms 185 with that shade

[Rob Coleman]

As an FYI, Wilflex did for a time make some non-migrating plastisol PCs, I think they were for printing over a DC base?  Not sure really but I swear that was a thing you could buy at some point.

Zoo- actually the non-migrating pigments (yellow and red) are to keep the pigment from migrating into another color when trapping. Specifically think old school athletic numbering where you might print a solid number with red, flash, then print white in top of the red. Standard red pigment will migrate into the white.

So why not just manufacture all red with this NM pigment?  Yup, super expensive rmc!


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[dirkdiggler]

Dirk - thats is the blue shade of red - not the yellow shade of red.

Hard to hit pms 185 with that shade

I know, but its my favorite RED thats super consistent.