Color in can vs on an underbase

[bryanprints]

I'm always happy with the color after mix.  When I print with an underbase it always changes tone / color a bit.  Sometimes enough for me to think it doesn't look like it at all.  With pantone mixing how do you combat that?  I'd be nervous that if I went darker it may stay darker and look bad as well. 

I just don't want a situation where I'm holding a jar of ink, a shirt, and a pantone book explaining why I'm an idiot.  Haha

[Frog]

How translucent are you making your inks? What system are you using?

[bryanprints]

Wilflex Epic PC system.  Guess that might help!  haha

[Colin]

Like Frog said, your mixing system of choice has a max opacity.  Also, the color your mixing will have a maximum opacity based on its color components.

Flourescents and yellow pigments for example are very translucent. 

Definition of translucent:   

trans·lu·cent
transˈlo͞osnt,tranzˈlo͞osnt
adjective
adjective: translucent
(of a substance) allowing light, but not detailed images, to pass through; semitransparent.
"fry until the onions become translucent"
synonyms:   semitransparent, semiopaque, pellucid, limpid, clear; More

When you are looking at your pantone book, the colors in the middle of each page are typically very clean very bright colors.  The cleaner and brighter a color is - the more translucent the color will be.

This of course causes headaches for us as screen printers.  A simple solution that works sometimes, is to use the pantone shade right underneath the color you want.  Lets say you are mixing PMS 361.  There is a lot of yellow in that color, so we know it will lighten up a bit when printed.  You can try PMS 362 which is right below it.  Just be aware, some of those colors have black added to the formula which can cause problems.

The longer solution is to look at your printed color and determine which color tone is missing.  Then pull your ink out of the screen and - writing down all the additions - add a gram or 5 or more of what is missing.  Some adjustments are really fast and obvious, others take some messing around.

Example:  PMS 116 yellow has a bit of fluorescent red in the mix.  But when printed over a base white, that red visibly diminishes.  I found I needed to add 2-3 times as much Flou red to get the color right.  This testing is done on my shop under my print conditions - your shop will vary

Also, make sure you look at your printed color when fully cured and under both shop lights and natural sunlight.  This will give you a better understanding of what your color is actually doing.  Unless you have a very nice color testing light box.. .then definitely use that

Hopefully this will help!

[scrubz]

I have the same issue with Epic as well.  I never had that problem with the previous Wilflex (not epic, but can't remember the name...MP maybe?) we used.  Even when I increase the pigments, I sometimes need to PDP to get the color up.

[Mr Tees!!]

Rather than go one shade darker, I usually start off by cutting back on the white pigment to start. I usually cut it by 20-50%. Test then add more white back in as needed.

Remeber, you can always add pigment, but hiu can never take it back out!

[Colin]

True!

Just remember, taking white out will also lower your opacity - creating more translucency

The "best solution color wise" is to increase your pigment load - *WARNING* but if not done properly, that can create flashing issues and cure issues!  Even when I boost pigment load, I will still need to adjust color balance for better accuracy.

I tend to add dulling paste to a lot of my colors.  While dulling paste creates a bit of an opacity boost, it can also cause the color to lighten out - the micro spheres expanding - creating the dull look - have the effect of adding a touch of white to your mix.  You can counter act that by pulling out a small bit of your white.  EXPERIMENT WITH YOUR MIXING SYSTEM FIRST before trying something like that in production.

[DonR]

I sometimes use a grey underbase to fight this problem. You can slowly darken or lighten the underbase until the top color appears correct.

[Dottonedan]

I gotta tell ya.  Much of my experience with inks has been using Union Max opaques for the bulk of color use. We had no issues at that time but our ink mixer would just add whatever % of base we needed for the specific job. We matched pantone colors for every job. back then, there was no finesse or soft hand, just base. If there were, we weren't using any of it, just base.   We use Wilflex whites and blockers.   Then, I had the opportunity to use Rutland M3's and for my taste, they were too thin. Way too thin.

Now, I'm at a shop that uses all Wilflex Epic.  I like Ray Smith from Wilflex a lot. I'm a believer in (him), but I'm not fond of the Epic series at all. We have to baby sit each pms color way too much and have to fine tune each pms match like people are saying to find your dead match. Maybe Wilfex has another option that our people just haven't gravitated towards. I donno.  We match what the mix says to use but it's off all too often.

[Colin]

I don't have experience with Wilflex systems.  I haven't used them since I started in '96. 

But I remember printers saying that depending on the base it will match better - or not.  Have you and Tony looked down that route?

Also, how far off are we talking?  On white shirts or base whites?

[Dottonedan]

Tony's the one that brings it back in. He makes some tweaks to match the colors we need.  It becomes off shade from going on white tees, to colors, to underbase on mediums and darks.  Sometimes we need two different inks when printing on white shirts and then same print on dark/black shirts.  Keep in mind tho, we are most often, printing on comfort colors. They are slightly loftier and some bleeders. Sometimes there is a bleed blocker grey in there as well. For the most part, the areas that need to be, have 100% solid bleed blocker and solid white base.  It might be the fact that this is what we have to deal with when using comfort colors.

A lot of the ink characteristics that I had relied on in the past to make use of in my art, just don't work in this case.

[Colin]

Tony's the one that brings it back in. He makes some tweaks to match the colors we need.  It becomes off shade from going on white tees, to colors, to underbase on mediums and darks.  Sometimes we need two different inks when printing on white shirts and then same print on dark/black shirts.  Keep in mind tho, we are most often, printing on comfort colors. They are slightly loftier and some bleeders. Sometimes there is a bleed blocker grey in there as well. For the most part, the areas that need to be, have 100% solid bleed blocker and solid white base.  It might be the fact that this is what we have to deal with when using comfort colors.

A lot of the ink characteristics that I had relied on in the past to make use of in my art, just don't work in this case.

You will always need 2 different mixes to match pms on white T's and anything under based.  More to the point, anything with a solid under base.

As was mentioned with the grey base, your colors may still need to be tweaked further based on how white your base is Vs. how grey it is

Its not an enviable position.  I have been there and it can be more than a little frustrating, especially when production is getting backed up.  Tony will read this going: yup, yup, yup, oh you forgot half a dozen other fun things I get to deal with   Heat on the garment during testing/beginning of the run/end of the run/mesh count variables/print speed.... ok, covered 2 of them

We print almost entirely on solid base whites.  The owner doesn't like to see halftone bases on solid art.  The print is not bright enough and you can still see texture, no matter how good you are. 

Sounds like you do a lot more solid color printing than halftone work?  A lot more flashes involved?  If so, Tony is definitely earning his paycheck.

[Dottonedan]

Tony's the one that brings it back in. He makes some tweaks to match the colors we need.  It becomes off shade from going on white tees, to colors, to underbase on mediums and darks.  Sometimes we need two different inks when printing on white shirts and then same print on dark/black shirts.  Keep in mind tho, we are most often, printing on comfort colors. They are slightly loftier and some bleeders. Sometimes there is a bleed blocker grey in there as well. For the most part, the areas that need to be, have 100% solid bleed blocker and solid white base.  It might be the fact that this is what we have to deal with when using comfort colors.

A lot of the ink characteristics that I had relied on in the past to make use of in my art, just don't work in this case.

You will always need 2 different mixes to match pms on white T's and anything under based.  More to the point, anything with a solid under base.
Different experiences I guess. We don't normally do that in fact rarely, (and at other shops I've worked at, we never did two colors) for various garments and that was licensed products also. So I guess it depends on what the expectations are, preferences and ink types etc.

As was mentioned with the grey base, your colors may still need to be tweaked further based on how white your base is Vs. how grey it is
Bottom line is that we (they) try to get the base whites pretty opaque as it is, without adding a top white. Again, to me, whites are not opaque enough to only use one white. I often prefer a top white as well.

Its not an enviable position.  I have been there and it can be more than a little frustrating, especially when production is getting backed up.  Tony will read this going: yup, yup, yup, oh you forgot half a dozen other fun things I get to deal with   Heat on the garment during testing/beginning of the run/end of the run/mesh count variables/print speed.... ok, covered 2 of them

We print almost entirely on solid base whites.  The owner doesn't like to see halftone bases on solid art.  The print is not bright enough and you can still see texture, no matter how good you are.  We get color (bright) enough. They may no be an exact mach, but they are bright enough. The colors are as vibrant as needed.  It's the mach and the whites that are challenging. Now, most people in house don't have an issue with our white look. It's just me. I don't like the whites. Too many fibers and makes it dingy, but that might just be the characteristic of printing on comfort colors.

Sounds like you do a lot more solid color printing than halftone work?  A lot more flashes involved?  If so, Tony is definitely earning his paycheck.

We probably do about 30-40% solid spot color work (guessing). The rest is sim process, but it's not real complicated sim process. We typically flash 1 time only and run wet on wet.  We have roller frames, auto coater, and tight screens. Screens/stencils are pretty solid and never a concern. It's those derned ink! LOL.

[Colin]

Do you have the M&R Hot Head for getting the fibers down better?

It sounds like I have the same opinion on base white opacity/fiber trap/fibers coming through and discoloring top colors that you do.  Comfort colors are extremely fibrous.  So are a few other shirt brands.  One garment that we print on is a recycled fabric that is redonculous.  We have our Hot Head coming in next week for a multi thousand print run.... should work wonders (crosses fingers).

"We get color (bright) enough. They may no be an exact mach, but they are bright enough. The colors are as vibrant as needed.  It's the mach and the whites that are challenging. Now, most people in house don't have an issue with our white look. It's just me. I don't like the whites. Too many fibers and makes it dingy,"

That is my opinion as well on many things.  I "mad scientist" the ink often, trying to make it all better.  Look for better whites for base plates... Find one, then the next production batch something changes... then I go looking again.  Smoothing screens on both presses, trying to keep flashes low so the board temp stays low etc.... its a challenge.

[tse1990]

We had the same problem a few weeks ago, looked great in can but lightened on underbase. PMS 349, like a pine green.

In our case, we just had to double stroke the green to get it to match it's PMS chip. We got lucky, our solution was on the press.