Crickets Chirping.....

[ScreenFoo]

I'm intrigued by the framing of four color process being the benchmark, but in screen printing that not being four color process, but instead sim process with 8-9 screens. 

Do you feel four color process plus white somehow competes with the gamut of sim process on a quality scale?
To do what you're saying, wouldn't it have to?

[merchmonster]

It's not true that there is no setup time in dtg because One of the biggest barriers for dtg is the inconsistency of reproduction across t-shirt brands / weights. So if you print the exact same color / brand / style all the time setup is minimal but not if you're printing multiple substrates which all of us are required to do.

I was doing hard proofs this morning and had an image on white tee that was bleeding. Dialed it in on a.scrap startee shirt. Ran it on a Bella 3001, and its back bleeding again. Dialed it in on the Bella after 2 more prints, the whole process took 30 min to run tests.

I also ran a different  proof on gildan 64000 tee. Guessed correctly at how much more pretreat we would need, missed on the extra white and then dialed it in on the second try. since I like to make sure all variables are correct before handing over to production - pretreat, ink density, image - takes about 1/2 hr.

[ScreenFoo]

Crickets chirping indeed. 

[JeridHill]

Sorry, holidays....

"I'm intrigued by the framing of four color process being the benchmark, but in screen printing that not being four color process, but instead sim process with 8-9 screens."

I agree with this and usually the discussion I have with people. You may be able to get away with four color process on a white shirt, but not black and of course 8-9 sim process will always produce a much better print.

"Do you feel four color process plus white somehow competes with the gamut of sim process on a quality scale?
To do what you're saying, wouldn't it have to?"

With DTG, even though it's four color process, the inks aren't pure 100% cyan, 100% magenta, 100% yellow or 100% black. They are tweaked to produce a better color gamut then couple that with using RGB as your image color file structure and the RIP can push the limits of typical CMYK printers.

[JeridHill]

It's not true that there is no setup time in dtg because One of the biggest barriers for dtg is the inconsistency of reproduction across t-shirt brands / weights. So if you print the exact same color / brand / style all the time setup is minimal but not if you're printing multiple substrates which all of us are required to do.

It depends on your business. If you open up the possibilities to print on any type of garment because your customer dictates it, sure there's going to be quite a bit of testing and so forth. We don't advocate letting the customer pick. If your business model is structured that way, it may not be the best if you don't have time to test, etc.

I was doing hard proofs this morning and had an image on white tee that was bleeding. Dialed it in on a.scrap startee shirt. Ran it on a Bella 3001, and its back bleeding again. Dialed it in on the Bella after 2 more prints, the whole process took 30 min to run tests.

Obviously one style of shirt may print differently than another. When you have something dialed in for a particular shirt, some software will allow you to save presets so you don't have to try to figure it out every time. That being said, there really are only a few categories of shirt styles that all print about the same within that category. It's definitely a trial and error process. For the most part, if I have a shirt in hand I've never tested, I can tell what settings should work best. But this shouldn't be on an every job basis.

I also ran a different  proof on gildan 64000 tee. Guessed correctly at how much more pretreat we would need, missed on the extra white and then dialed it in on the second try. since I like to make sure all variables are correct before handing over to production - pretreat, ink density, image - takes about 1/2 hr.

Not much to say other than it's the same scenario as above.

[inkman996]

We still print more jobs CMYK on press than we do on the DTG. It does not take long at all to process 4 films and shoot the screens versus the extremely long time it takes to print on a DTG compared to on press.

I can also print better colors on the press than the DTG can with extra colors on top of the cmyk. Ever see how well Brothers inks make purple?

Still tho I lost interest i9n the process a long time ago, it just is not advancing in any way noticeable. A lot of the things you mention are nothing more than polishing up already existing processes.

[JeridHill]

A lot of the things you mention are nothing more than polishing up already existing processes.

New ink chemistry is coming out all the time with better advancements. That's where the focus has to be now that the printers have improved throughout the years. As for Brother, they don't use a RIP software and the reason for the need to adjust colors in your artwork or you get unwanted colors on your prints.

[ScreenFoo]

I agree with this and usually the discussion I have with people. You may be able to get away with four color process on a white shirt, but not black and of course 8-9 sim process will always produce a much better print.

With DTG, even though it's four color process, the inks aren't pure 100% cyan, 100% magenta, 100% yellow or 100% black. They are tweaked to produce a better color gamut then couple that with using RGB as your image color file structure and the RIP can push the limits of typical CMYK printers.

Interesting.
I'm guessing on darks you can increase the saturation without worrying about total ink deposit, which would be neat.
But by the same token, no bumps for that saturated red, violet, or royal.

And speaking of extending gamut, what kinds of colors on white can you hit on a DTG that I can't with 4CP?

[merchmonster]

It's not true that there is no setup time in dtg because One of the biggest barriers for dtg is the inconsistency of reproduction across t-shirt brands / weights. So if you print the exact same color / brand / style all the time setup is minimal but not if you're printing multiple substrates which all of us are required to do.

It depends on your business. If you open up the possibilities to print on any type of garment because your customer dictates it, sure there's going to be quite a bit of testing and so forth. We don't advocate letting the customer pick. If your business model is structured that way, it may not be the best if you don't have time to test, etc.

Not sure what world you live in but OK. Ultimately the customer wants what they want - if you won't sell it to them someone else will. Customers these days want choice man. 

We do contract print work and custom print work. For the contract stuff the job is already decided and sold before I get my hands on it. For the custom stuff we try to steer the customer into a product that will print well.

I was doing hard proofs this morning and had an image on white tee that was bleeding. Dialed it in on a.scrap startee shirt. Ran it on a Bella 3001, and its back bleeding again. Dialed it in on the Bella after 2 more prints, the whole process took 30 min to run tests.

Obviously one style of shirt may print differently than another. When you have something dialed in for a particular shirt, some software will allow you to save presets so you don't have to try to figure it out every time. That being said, there really are only a few categories of shirt styles that all print about the same within that category. It's definitely a trial and error process. For the most part, if I have a shirt in hand I've never tested, I can tell what settings should work best. But this shouldn't be on an every job basis.

IMO the lack of predictability is a barrier the technology will need to get over in order to really make it big time. Screen printing press is superior to DTG in terms of predicability.

[tonypep]

Agreed on this. Almost impossible to steer customers into what you want to print/image. Only exception I've run into is if they insist on discharge. Then we have the upper hand

[JeridHill]

And speaking of extending gamut, what kinds of colors on white can you hit on a DTG that I can't with 4CP?

Mainly vibrant (almost) fluorescent like colors, they are tough but it can be done. But it's really more about the gradients and smoothness of print versus halftones.

[JeridHill]

Not sure what world you live in but OK. Ultimately the customer wants what they want - if you won't sell it to them someone else will. Customers these days want choice man.

In DTG you don't hand a customer a source book for shirts and say pick anything you want, it just cannot work that way. So you pick shirts that work well but have a variety and let the customer choose from that. I know you say the customer wants what they want, but you wouldn't print on 100% polyester, it's simply not an option, so why offer garments that don't print well in the 100% cotton category. You still give the customer a choice, but you choose which shirts they can pick from. And when they absolutely have to have the shirt they want, then you print on it and print on a good shirt and show them the difference and let them decide at that point. It's all about selling the customer what works best for you and gives them a great product. You allow them to choose any crappy shirt and your reputation is on the line. If your business model wouldn't allow for this kind of choice, then DTG isn't right for your business.

We do contract print work and custom print work. For the contract stuff the job is already decided and sold before I get my hands on it. For the custom stuff we try to steer the customer into a product that will print well.

If you have absolutely no say in the matter, that's more understandable, but the principal works the same for this type of customer as well. If they choose a shirt that you know won't print well, you have to let them know this before the next order, otherwise, personally I would not guarantee any results.

IMO the lack of predictability is a barrier the technology will need to get over in order to really make it big time. Screen printing press is superior to DTG in terms of predicability.

I can't argue with this, I agree. I screen printed for 13 years but I will say that I had to learn the predictability as well. Different meshes, pressures, angles of squeegees, coating techniques, types of inks for different substrates, etc, etc. Once you understand these things it is predictable. DTG isn't there yet and a lot of it has to do with the shirt manufacturers themselves. For example, I can print on a Gildan shirt made in Honduras and one made in Nicaragua and they will look different, so as a general rule, I stay away from Gildan. But I've personally talked to 3 major brands and they are all working on trying to make better shirts for the DTG industry.

[mimosatexas]

I can't argue with this, I agree. I screen printed for 13 years but I will say that I had to learn the predictability as well. Different meshes, pressures, angles of squeegees, coating techniques, types of inks for different substrates, etc, etc. Once you understand these things it is predictable. DTG isn't there yet and a lot of it has to do with the shirt manufacturers themselves. For example, I can print on a Gildan shirt made in Honduras and one made in Nicaragua and they will look different, so as a general rule, I stay away from Gildan. But I've personally talked to 3 major brands and they are all working on trying to make better shirts for the DTG industry.

I have found this to be true with every brand we have tried.  We typically print on Canvas 3001 (C or U depending on the client).  The ones made in Bangladesh print the best, followed by Nicaragua and US made which print fine most of the time but require a bit more pretreat, and the ones in Honduras vary from shirt to shirt out of the same dozen from the same case.  Some will print like absolute crap, some are perfect.  All variables the same minus the shirt.  We have had mixed luck on next level, though some of their shirt colors do not stain where the Canvas version of those colors do (light blues, purples, pinks) so we use NL for those shades.  American Apparel prints like crap with dupont inks, but we tried a few other ink brands that worked well on those shirts but sucked on the Canvas and Next Level and had other issues that ultimately led us back to dupont.

I still think it makes no sense for anyone to compare screen printing and DTG in a way where one replaces the other.  They are inherently different methods which have little crossover.  On demand, small runs, etc, DTG is already the much better tool, but for almost everything else it isnt going to replace screenprinting for a very long time.  It would basically require a printhead printing with screenprinting inks (like actual mixed pantones etc) at 1000 shirts an hour and minimal maintenance.

[JeridHill]

I still think it makes no sense for anyone to compare screen printing and DTG in a way where one replaces the other.  They are inherently different methods which have little crossover.  On demand, small runs, etc, DTG is already the much better tool, but for almost everything else it isnt going to replace screenprinting for a very long time.  It would basically require a printhead printing with screenprinting inks (like actual mixed pantones etc) at 1000 shirts an hour and minimal maintenance.

If I came across that way, it wasn't my intention. I agree with this as well. I don't think it's any time soon, but in 20 years time, I could see it happen. Not a complete replacement but screen printing could become more specialized.

[GraphicDisorder]

I still think it makes no sense for anyone to compare screen printing and DTG in a way where one replaces the other.  They are inherently different methods which have little crossover.  On demand, small runs, etc, DTG is already the much better tool, but for almost everything else it isnt going to replace screenprinting for a very long time.  It would basically require a printhead printing with screenprinting inks (like actual mixed pantones etc) at 1000 shirts an hour and minimal maintenance.

If I came across that way, it wasn't my intention. I agree with this as well. I don't think it's any time soon, but in 20 years time, I could see it happen. Not a complete replacement but screen printing could become more specialized.

Even if in 20 years time this magic happens.... the adoption of new tech is SUPER slow in this industry. I can't tell you how many shops ive been in with presses from the 80's and 90's. Its sad.