Discharge base

[endhymns]

So, we have a small dryer in the shop and at this point I'm not willing to offer WB / Discharge at this time as I'm doubtful that I can reach a full cure. I do however have a desire to start implementing discharge bases on select jobs. Anyhow, I had a job come through that was a good fit for this and led me to do a little R&D. Overall, I'm pretty happy with the results but I did run into a few hiccups that I would love to get sorted out before I put this into production. This was a 4 color job plus a discharge base. I shot the base on a 150S and tested both an 80/20 ratio of CCI D-Base to D-White as well as just straight base using a 70/90/70. I was definitely happier with the opacity of the of the 80/20 ratio, but I did get a bit of pickup after the flash leading to reg issues. I was thinking about reshooting the base on a 225S?

All of my top colors were burned on 225 S-mesh with Wilflex Epic Rio colors + 10% soft hand fashion base. 70 duro squeegees in all screens. Again, opacity was great, but the top colors would get pretty shiny when printed on top of the base. I think this is just the Rio inks over a base in general, but I would love to reduce that sheen for a matte look. I was thinking I would ditch the s-mesh and reburn these on 230s and add a touch of dulling paste in my colors. I could also base out my inks further or throw some harder squeegees into the mix, but I would love to eliminate the other variables before I go this route. Lastly, the overall hand was decent, especially after a couple of wash tests, but if I could get softer prints yet, I would love to. I'm sure higher meshes all around would help with this as well.

I should add that I'm manual printing. Any thoughts on reducing pickup, ink sheen, and / or hand?

[Monkeysmakemenervous]

You've answered all your own questions perfectly- 80/20 base on a 230, colors on 305's. That's my route, and I've had great results. Never used the Rio inks, however, but the jump in mesh count should help with the shine, and add some paste or a dash of puff if need be to flatten. Also, depending on your top colors... if you need it to be brighter than the 305's are allowing, you can go to a 70/30 mix on your base, or put the trouble colors (if they are but one or two) back on a slightly lower mesh count.  This whole recipe works especially well for sim process jobs. After the washes—super soft hand! Oh, and with your current set up? If possible, hit the final print with some dwell time under the flash before sending it down the dryer. You may notice a big enough difference that you start moving forward with this project earlier than first suspected.

[Colin]

Suede additive is used for dulling paste,  not puff

If you go beyond 20% white into D-Base, reallllly drive it into the garment and do a wash test to check for long term adhesion issues.  The plastisol "Can" flake off due to the waterbase pigment interfering with adhesion.

If you were getting pick off after the flashing the d-base mixture - double check that you are flashing long enough to get alllll the water out.  Again, make sure that you leave little to no D-Base on top of the fibers - if possible.  Thinner stencils will help.

For your top colors, did you flash in between?  Flashing will definitely increase shine.  Try printing wet-on-wet and using a 70/90/70 sharp blade.  You will see your inks become very smooth and much more matte.

I would stick with your 225-S for now.  Its a great mesh.

[Monkeysmakemenervous]

I've been using puff for probably 15 years to dull anything with an obnoxious shine to it, ever since I inquired about a sample of dulling paste from a local sales rep. He brought me a little jar with a scoop of puff in it and "".5-1%" scrawled on it. He had no idea what it was- a fella in stock who actually had experience had given it to him for me. I was pleased with the results and he (the rep) proceeded to go on and on about how wonderful it was and blah-blah-properties.... it wasn't until I tried to order some that the stocker told us both what was in the jar! Gotta love them reps! They so clean and shiny! I've heard the suede works great as well, but I've never had call to use it before, and my shop is pretty well over run with samples of this and that that were "amazing, new, and BOUND to save both time and $ !" I'd be interested to know if one additive or the other held any sway over the other, possibly in the way of longevity or something else, considering in this case that both are being used in a way other than intended. And I agree about the flashing. I've gotten so accustomed to working around those things that I often assume they don't exist beyond head two. Reading these forums and being a huge fan of them, I'd like to ask— are you if the camp that will add water to your inks or not? Beyond 20% (white) in the base mix I usually find I generally do, but as you mentioned, being sure to have evaporated ALL the water is a must to avoid further problems.

[endhymns]

Hey y'all, thanks for the insights. So after my initial post, I did have a chance to do some more testing and tried everything that I had originally inquired about. I bumped the discharge base up to a 225 S which helped with the pickup after the flash without losing opacity (although flashing longer may have served the same purpose) and additionally bumped the top colors up to 230s and added 5% suede additive which knocked the shine down quite a bit. That said, I would say that the suede additive was the real winner here, so I may be inclined to try 225 S mesh for the top colors again down the road. I was pleased enough after several wash tests (with both the hand and finish) that I did end up running the job in this manner.

With the initial success of this first job, I ran a few more tests on a simple one color white on black print in much the same manner using a 225 S for the d-base with a 80/20 ratio and a 225 S for the top white using Wilflex Sprint White with 10% soft hand additive. I ran the base with no off contact and added penetrant, really driving the ink in with downward pressure and did much the same with the plastisol. The print was soft, smooth and bright which seemed promising, but this time around the prints failed wash tests pretty miserably initially cracking along the channels of the garment and eventually the plastisol began cracking and flaking off.

I was able to dig up a few old threads of people sharing similar experiences and read that the plastisol needs to essentially encapsulate the garment fibers to prevent cracking. This led me to give this another go just yesterday. I ran everything the same this time around with the exception of foregoing the soft hand in the top white and laying a thin layer of plastisol on top of the garment instead of driving it in. I ran a few tests, a few of which were flashed and flattened after the plastisol. Again the prints looked and felt great, but failed wash tests yet again. The results were better as they did not immediately split, but there was a bit of initial cracking and flaking which was worse on the prints that were not flattened.

This leads me to believe that the plastisol is simply undercured. I read in one of the aforementioned threads that the plastisol does not begin to cure until all of water has evaporated and it seems that on the initial job, as I flashed after every top color, the base had a chance to nearly fully charge before even hitting out already lacking tunnel. This also would jive with the one color white print which was flashed and flattened withstanding wash and stretch tests to a slightly greater degree.

Any thoughts on if this sounds like under cure or if something else may be the culprit? I'm hoping to work this into our normal workflow as I'm happy with the results, but perhaps I'm asking too much of our small dryer (Economax).

[Colin]

You already found your culprit.

You probably did not cure the discharge base well enough for the plastisol white to bond with the shirt.

The multicolor you did before, you flashed the base well enough to have no water left in the waterbase print. 

Do another test where you flash the discharge base for much longer.  Also, for the white print.... try straight d-base without white added....

[endhymns]

Thanks Colin, I'll give it a go this week.