The Honeymoon Is Over-4 Months In, Gauntlet 3

[alan802]

As many of you know I've been trying to keep anyone who cares informed in our experience with buying the M&R Gauntlet 3 at the end of last year.  We all know how great a new auto is, especially the first few months, but as the new wears off reality should set in.  Within a few months most shops should have a really good feel for their new press and should know all of its features by then.  They should also know its weaknesses, but with such a large ticket item and the tried and true theory of "buyers' pride" you rarely hear about a press's weaknesses, if in fact it has any real issues.  But, unfortunately for those who haven't had a great experience with a new auto, the more silent they are the more people want to dig and we all know what that leads to...mostly rumor but nuggets of truth are also found.  So knowing that, I feel that being transparent is the best policy, but others can do what they want.  If they are having issues with their new auto and want to hide it then that's their business. 

I'd like to first mention that our purchase, install and next 8 years with the RPM were about as perfect as one could expect.  Living up to that standard was not realistic in my opinion.  Rick came and installed the RPM in about 6 hours, and we've lost about 4 hours of production due to a press malfunction/part failure since it was installed, that's rare.  I've mentioned the G3 install but I'll cover the basics again so that others won't have to go back and search.  We had a great senior tech, and a new guy he was training come and do the bulk of the install, then the flash guru was here for a day helping with the install and teaching us all how to run the new Red Chili DX units.  Again, let's put it all out on the table and I don't want to be guilty of what I see so many other shops do and gloss over the problems and only talk about the positive things.  I went back through the G3 and further calibrated the print heads to my high standards.  Where the machine was when the guys left is good enough for 99% of the shops out there, but I needed to tighten the tolerances up because that's what I do.  And if I would have told the techs that I wanted the press to be at that tolerance I bet they would have done it while they were here, but I knew I was going to do it anyway to learn the press so I didn't bother to disclose that info to them.  One other issue that I'm working on is trying to figure out how best to use the DX flashes and if I'm doing something wrong with the setup or if there might be a glitch somewhere that M&R needs to look at, but they work so damn good right now and the features I'm not getting to use I'm not really sure I'd use them anyway.  I haven't spoken to M&R about it yet because it's really low on the list of important things and we aren't losing a second of production time.

It's really hard not to talk about the press without comparing it to other machines and I'll try not to risk starting a press war thread.  But, I feel like things need to be said here and if someone wants to take that the wrong way then oh well.  The G3's main competition has a ton of features, but the biggest thing I've learned in the last few years is the manufacturers can leave off a lot of features because textile screen printing is limited and all these fancy bells and whistles don't add to the print quality or production efficiency, so therefore are a waste of time.  I can go down the list of autos that I feel go over that imaginary line of having too many features but I'll keep it brief.  The MHM 5000, WAY OVER, but wow it's cool.  The CH3D, it goes over, the ROQ ECO, over, the RPM is under by a little, the G3 is right on the line, you get the picture by now.  At the end of the day we're trying to get ink from one side of the stencil to the substrate side.  You can build an auto that will cook for you or give you a foot massage after a run, but you have to draw the line somewhere.

With all the recent shops getting press upgrades, I have no clue if they can say that they've had no issues like we can, but the techs left and we've done nothing but use the machine the way we want and it is so incredibly efficient at setups, running and teardown.  There are other options out there, but if anyone tells you their non-M&R press can outperform or print more shirts in a shift than the G3 then they are trying to sell you something.  I'm certain that other machines can match the G3, or perhaps be faster in one area or another, but there isn't a press in the same price category that will make a shop more money per shift, period.  Comparable?  I'm sure.  But if someone tells you that if you trade in your G3 for whatever they're selling and your production efficiency or print quality will increase, they're "selling".  And if anyone out there did increase their shop efficiency by going with a COMPARABLE different color press then I don't believe they were using the M&R presses to their capability.  They aren't lying if they tell you they're doing more now, but they aren't being genuine if they tell you the M&R was deficient in some way.

I don't even feel right about this next part, because I'm truly nitpicking, but there has to be something on this press that could be better...right?  No press is perfect.  What would I add or change on the G3?  Again, I feel like a jerk for this but I also don't feel like it's a true review if I say the press only has positive attributes. 
1.  The touchscreen could be bigger.  I have meat hooks for hands, sausage fingers if you will.  Even a few more inches in size would probably be enough to keep me from hitting the wrong icon and it doesn't happen often but it has happened a few times. 
2.  I wish the control panel had an icon on the "Setup/Teardown" screen to preheat the flashes like it has on the "Print Run" screen.  I'll usually keep the control panel on "Print Run" when I'm setting up just because it has the flash icon that when you touch it the flashes come on for however long you have it set to.  It's a great function that we have always had on all 3 autos we've owned.  I really don't know how shops function without having it.  I use that feature dozens or more times per day during setup and a print run. 
3.  REALLY nitpicking here, but maybe a button on each head that does a test print directly instead of holding down the function button for a second.  The two buttons on the heads do several more functions than just 2, but maybe adding one button to be used strictly for test printing would be very easy to do and not really add to the cost.  So having a button to drop the head for manual setup/pressure test/various things, the reset button to lift the head back up and reset the safety cables, then a 3rd that only activates the test print function.  I get why it is the way it is, one button having several different functions has a purpose, and either way it's not something that hurts us but I think it would add some simplicity and maybe that would increase setup times.  As long as it doesn't add to the cost but makes things more simple and perhaps a tiny bit faster then it's a winner.
4.  I wish programming the revolver mode was a bit more simple, or more accurately user friendly/self explanatory.  There is a phrase for that but I can't recall it at the moment.  I was able to run the machine and get most of the press to function properly before anyone showed me how to, but operating the G3 from knowing nothing was more difficult than the RPM.  This is all petty stuff really, but I am trying to be honest here and find a few things but it's been hard.

Over the next few weeks I'll add to this thread and if anything else pops up on the negative side or if we have any issues I'll bring them to light here.  But so far, everything is REALLY sunshine and rainbows.  There isn't anyone saying everything is great publicly while behind the scenes things are bad.  I don't think that we'll have any issues that go on for several years and I won't be complaining privately and not getting issues resolved.  I seriously doubt any representative, big or small within the company will call me a whiner or tell me I should stop acting ridiculous because the problem isn't theirs to fix, or the problems aren't really that bad so I should stop complaining.  And I don't have to worry that what I say about our machine has any implications on future sales or that I'm going to be compensated in some way.  I'm telling you guys what is going on, our experience, because I believe it's what I should be doing.  This in no way means that others should be doing the same thing.  Some guys can say the exact same things about their press but because of other circumstances it looks bad when it might be perfectly innocent.  I think it's important because this thing we do and the time we spend here isn't for some hobby (for most of us).  This is big time money for machinery and in many cases multi-million dollar businesses and the things we say about machinery is going to be used to make SERIOUS decisions.  I'm here to tell you that there is a lot of very useful information that isn't being shared and also a lot that is shared isn't very factual, if at all.  This forum is full of awesome, truthful information to build a successful business, but humans are here, and they are fallible.  Some are honest, hard working saints, and some are not.  Don't believe everything that anyone types here, not me, not any one person.  Gather as much info as you can from as many different people and use it to make the very best decision that you can for your business.

For anyone that's still reading, thanks.  I'll keep adding some of the features that I like and anything else, good or bad, that might help others make better decisions.

[dirkdiggler]

CH3D is not overboard, in fact, its the same as your press with digital head controls and a larger control panel.  Both are great, not overboard at all.  My opinion.  I bet Brandt and Bimm will tell you the same, I think we are the only 3 here with CH3Ds.

[GraphicDisorder]

CH3D is not overboard, in fact, its the same as your press with digital head controls and a larger control panel.  Both are great, not overboard at all.  My opinion.  I bet Brandt and Bimm will tell you the same, I think we are the only 3 here with CH3Ds.

I love the larger display on the CH3D, the press has a faster servo I believe as well, I can't really fault our CH3D. Our issues are as follows, the long list!!!!!!:
1. Few months after install we tried to use head 3 which is where we have our flash.... it was wired backwards. M&R came out and fixed that the next day, it caused zero down time.
2. PLC battery warned us it was going out, we ordered the batteries, it went out the next day before the batteries came in. Zero down time again, pop new battery in before we ran that next day and off we went.

That's the complete list of issues, a lot I know. Our press is over 3 years old now. It's also been to London... set a world record....came back and puts in work daily.

We will likely add a second press this year or next. I believe it will probably be another CH3D or a G3 when we do that. I love the idea of them being the same (only we will go larger on the new one, 16/18 at least, maybe 18/20).

[bimmridder]

No problems, no comments here. But waiting to see responses by others

[ffokazak]

I have a CH3D too!

I cannot say enough good things about that press... the control over squeegee pressure is not overboard... It is a must have now that we've run ours for a year and a half.

 Blazingly fast ( Too fast in fact, no one can keep up Omar's pace for more than an instant...)

With any of these presses the list of "wants" are simply the cherry on top.  The simple fact is these machines are designed to produce an insane amount of shirts every day quickly, efficiently and precisely and I am so glad that I don't have to print in the 80's on a Gauntlet S with Rubylith

[bimmridder]

So back to Alan's post. What press did you buy? And honestly, what are the good and bad points about it?

For me, my most recent purchase was an M&R Stryker, 14 color 22 stations with three flashes and four open heads.

I think even Alan would appreciate the panel. Big and easy to use.

I was extremely happy with the install. Since day one, we have held dead nuts registration on all 22 platens. I was worried about this on such a long machine (almost 40'). If you want a quiet, servo drive machine, this ain't for you. It makes some noise. I don't care though. I can hear money being made. There is some maintenance that is a bit of a pain to do. I don't know if they can make it easier. (Greasing the rail). The biggest gripe I hear from my guys, is it takes so long to get around. Well the thing IS 40' long. I consider it a fitness program.

We did have a new chain put on, but it cost me nothing and was done so as not to affect production. If that's down time, I guess you can call it that. So over a year with it, and I really like it. My lead guy still loves his CIIID, but I love my Stryker. To each his (or her) own.

This machine is fairly basic. Print heads are CII type. But they are short, making the machine "tight". There are two cams/locks on each platen arm. There is ZERO movement when the platens are locked in. And since the arms are so short, no noticeable deflection.

So nothing fancy on this machine, just a hard working, money making machine.

Whatcha got?

I only wish I had more room to reconfigure my layout. The things I could do.......

[Ross_S]

Picked up a 12 color Sportsman EXG back in July.  Work load dropped off back in September but now were buried again.  Got about 250k prints on it already and we just grease it every Monday.  Saved me an ass load of time over my Tas press set up.

All and all I'm rather happy nothing special about the machine we just run the crap out of it.

[alan802]

It's an opinion of mine on an imaginary line, so it's VERY subjective but I see your point, but I come to this conclusion after having had 3 machines and we've increased the features on those machines each time.  As we've gone further I feel like we're close to the limit, but I could be persuaded to go further.  When Danny and I were walking through the ECO at the Ft Worth show I was saying "WOW" a lot.  But as I put more thought into it I was asking "why" and trying to figure out if it was something that I would use, and a few of the features I know I wouldn't.  The same goes for the 3D, but it's not a knock on the press.  Everyone knows I LOVE features but I've recently come to the understanding that we are limited by the process of screen printing.  When a dull squeegee blade can negate any benefits or features of a 200K machine you have to admit that there is a point where if you go beyond, you're losing efficiency.  If you can afford 5000 and will use all the features then I would encourage you to buy it, but don't get mad at me for not buying it, hope that makes sense.  I've been wrong many times, and I reserve the right to change my mind on this any time in the future .   

[GraphicDisorder]

They all print shirts and a monkey can make a hell of a living screen printing.

[3Deep]

It's an opinion of mine on an imaginary line, so it's VERY subjective but I see your point, but I come to this conclusion after having had 3 machines and we've increased the features on those machines each time.  As we've gone further I feel like we're close to the limit, but I could be persuaded to go further.  When Danny and I were walking through the ECO at the Ft Worth show I was saying "WOW" a lot.  But as I put more thought into it I was asking "why" and trying to figure out if it was something that I would use, and a few of the features I know I wouldn't.  The same goes for the 3D, but it's not a knock on the press.  Everyone knows I LOVE features but I've recently come to the understanding that we are limited by the process of screen printing.  When a dull squeegee blade can negate any benefits or features of a 200K machine you have to admit that there is a point where if you go beyond, you're losing efficiency.  If you can afford 5000 and will use all the features then I would encourage you to buy it, but don't get mad at me for not buying it, hope that makes sense.  I've been wrong many times, and I reserve the right to change my mind on this any time in the future .   

Big Al I get your point loud and clear, it's like buying a 200K car vs a 20K car both will break down both need gas/electric, both can get you where you want to go, one just has a bigger name than the other and get's you there in style.   Brandt hit the nail on the head they all print shirts, coming from him that's saying something 

[Stinkhorn Press]

i'm totally ignorant of the press options/higher end range of things - anyone care to clue me in on the the price difference between a new G3 and a new CH3D? say, 10/14 range?

[GraphicDisorder]

It's an opinion of mine on an imaginary line, so it's VERY subjective but I see your point, but I come to this conclusion after having had 3 machines and we've increased the features on those machines each time.  As we've gone further I feel like we're close to the limit, but I could be persuaded to go further.  When Danny and I were walking through the ECO at the Ft Worth show I was saying "WOW" a lot.  But as I put more thought into it I was asking "why" and trying to figure out if it was something that I would use, and a few of the features I know I wouldn't.  The same goes for the 3D, but it's not a knock on the press.  Everyone knows I LOVE features but I've recently come to the understanding that we are limited by the process of screen printing.  When a dull squeegee blade can negate any benefits or features of a 200K machine you have to admit that there is a point where if you go beyond, you're losing efficiency.  If you can afford 5000 and will use all the features then I would encourage you to buy it, but don't get mad at me for not buying it, hope that makes sense.  I've been wrong many times, and I reserve the right to change my mind on this any time in the future .   

Big Al I get your point loud and clear, it's like buying a 200K car vs a 20K car both will break down both need gas/electric, both can get you where you want to go, one just has a bigger name than the other and get's you there in style.   Brandt hit the nail on the head they all print shirts, coming from him that's saying something 

People would learn a lot about me if they put their own colored glasses down for a second. I love my M&R stuff, I will continue to be a M&R customer as long as they continue to build a quality product. But I would never suggest that someone cant make money with other brands as well. That would be ignorant of anyone to say. Some guy is probably running a sea of Lawson Troopers and stacking money!

[3Deep]

It's an opinion of mine on an imaginary line, so it's VERY subjective but I see your point, but I come to this conclusion after having had 3 machines and we've increased the features on those machines each time.  As we've gone further I feel like we're close to the limit, but I could be persuaded to go further.  When Danny and I were walking through the ECO at the Ft Worth show I was saying "WOW" a lot.  But as I put more thought into it I was asking "why" and trying to figure out if it was something that I would use, and a few of the features I know I wouldn't.  The same goes for the 3D, but it's not a knock on the press.  Everyone knows I LOVE features but I've recently come to the understanding that we are limited by the process of screen printing.  When a dull squeegee blade can negate any benefits or features of a 200K machine you have to admit that there is a point where if you go beyond, you're losing efficiency.  If you can afford 5000 and will use all the features then I would encourage you to buy it, but don't get mad at me for not buying it, hope that makes sense.  I've been wrong many times, and I reserve the right to change my mind on this any time in the future .   

Big Al I get your point loud and clear, it's like buying a 200K car vs a 20K car both will break down both need gas/electric, both can get you where you want to go, one just has a bigger name than the other and get's you there in style.   Brandt hit the nail on the head they all print shirts, coming from him that's saying something 

People would learn a lot about me if they put their own colored glasses down for a second. I love my M&R stuff, I will continue to be a M&R customer as long as they continue to build a quality product. But I would never suggest that someone cant make money with other brands as well. That would be ignorant of anyone to say. Some guy is probably running a sea of Lawson Troopers and stacking money!

Brandt I was poking fun at you and giving you a complement at the same time as you are one on here that's buys high quality and demand the best, but now if your talking about colored glasses mine are half and half, I buy what works for me and what we can afford plus make a little money. so put me in the Lawson Trooper group

[GraphicDisorder]

It's an opinion of mine on an imaginary line, so it's VERY subjective but I see your point, but I come to this conclusion after having had 3 machines and we've increased the features on those machines each time.  As we've gone further I feel like we're close to the limit, but I could be persuaded to go further.  When Danny and I were walking through the ECO at the Ft Worth show I was saying "WOW" a lot.  But as I put more thought into it I was asking "why" and trying to figure out if it was something that I would use, and a few of the features I know I wouldn't.  The same goes for the 3D, but it's not a knock on the press.  Everyone knows I LOVE features but I've recently come to the understanding that we are limited by the process of screen printing.  When a dull squeegee blade can negate any benefits or features of a 200K machine you have to admit that there is a point where if you go beyond, you're losing efficiency.  If you can afford 5000 and will use all the features then I would encourage you to buy it, but don't get mad at me for not buying it, hope that makes sense.  I've been wrong many times, and I reserve the right to change my mind on this any time in the future .   

Big Al I get your point loud and clear, it's like buying a 200K car vs a 20K car both will break down both need gas/electric, both can get you where you want to go, one just has a bigger name than the other and get's you there in style.   Brandt hit the nail on the head they all print shirts, coming from him that's saying something 

People would learn a lot about me if they put their own colored glasses down for a second. I love my M&R stuff, I will continue to be a M&R customer as long as they continue to build a quality product. But I would never suggest that someone cant make money with other brands as well. That would be ignorant of anyone to say. Some guy is probably running a sea of Lawson Troopers and stacking money!

Brandt I was poking fun at you and giving you a complement at the same time as you are one on here that's buys high quality and demand the best, but now if your talking about colored glasses mine are half and half, I buy what works for me and what we can afford plus make a little money. so put me in the Lawson Trooper group

I was joking back with you buddy...lol

[blue moon]

this topic was split as it went on a tangent. here's the explanation from the new topic that can be found here: http://www.theshirtboard.com/index.php/topic,20294.0.html


sorry, that was my fault. I thought another update would make sense as it was the same topic, but everything sort of continued on a tangent. I went ahead and split the topic.

The change was not intentional, my apologies for that. Anybody thinking that it was, might want to rethink their opinions. I share with ppl what I find exciting and is currently relevant. ROQ is what I am working on and exposed to now. Just like it was halftones, white ink and MHM before. . .

pierre