Greyscale done as just black and white?

[Gilligan]

Thanks Andy... I agree with you... I do have the option though he's dropped a lot of halftones from my art before in the past without my approval... it was mission critical but it makes me worry about this type of thing.

Anyway... I actually haven't said yes to this job quite yet.  I quoted him a one color job and he sent me 5 color artwork and we've been trying to figure out something since.  I thought he was going to send me some different artwork but he just sent me the straight greyscale version of the same 5 color job.  I said I would see what I could do... but I haven't said "yes" exactly yet.

Are you suggesting that I just do a line art version of it?  I'm not opposed to offering that to them... or maybe mixing it a little bit of halftones to add a "little" dimension to the print as well as getting my feet a "little" wet here.

[blue moon]

1.  It eats squeegees.

2.  There is less opacity in process inks

3.  They feel crisp on the shirt with any decent amount of coverage.

4.  I hate the way it turns to liquid in the screen.

and to add, the process inks are not very compatible with SBQ/photopolymer emulsions.

we use a unimatch black for all our prints. It is designed for sim process printing so it blends well and goes through the 305's and 330's just fine, but unlike the 4CP black, it is actually black (rather than the dark gray). It has a soft hand feel too. After trying few different blacks, this is the only one we stock. . .

pierre

[3Deep]

Gilligan, you can print this on a 200 mesh screen, but you'll need a sharp edge squeege maybe an 80 duro and only do one firm print stroke without flooding that will stop your dot gain and keep the print crisp and clean.  I like my ink a little thicker sometimes when doing halftone work on lower mesh counts like QCM wow inks or just straight out the can without stiring it up...trial and error and you'll be fine, all the advice these guys are giving you are dead on, so keep all that in mine on your next project.

Darryl

[Dottonedan]

If you can not all of this is a mot point.

  You know that is really spelt moot.
Aaaaaawe,  Pierre, shame shame.        Frog is gonna get you!

[Frog]

No Dan that would be if he used "mute" because I know that he should know better, being a product of you're-a-peein' education.

[Frog]

Thanks Andy... I agree with you... I do have the option though he's dropped a lot of halftones from my art before in the past without my approval... it was mission critical but it makes me worry about this type of thing.

You are not limited to merely another printer who can't print halftones either. lol!

Are you suggesting that I just do a line art version of it?  I'm not opposed to offering that to them... or maybe mixing it a little bit of halftones to add a "little" dimension to the print as well as getting my feet a "little" wet here.

My suggestion was to merely see if it is practical. To see if you can, indeed, learn and output and burn, and print halftones in the time allotted. If a straight line version is offered up as an alternative, great, but as you see here, grayscale versions can look pretty nice.

For that matter, someone else here could probably do a pretty nice job with the original five color version.

[blue moon]

or maybe mixing it a little bit of halftones to add a "little" dimension to the print as well as getting my feet a "little" wet here.

there is no such thing as little bit of half tone. If you can print any half tones, you can print the whole enchilada! My suggestion is print the test pattern Frog suggested and see what comes out. It might be easier if you start with a really big dot and work your way to something smaller. Try 20 lpi to start and then move to 35 and then 45.

pierre

[blue moon]

If you can not all of this is a mot point.

  You know that is really spelt moot.
Aaaaaawe,  Pierre, shame shame.        Frog is gonna get you!

actually, I don't know what you are talking about!    All is spelled correctly!

[Gilligan]

Andy... I'm not so sure that he CAN'T print them as much as it is that something is lost in translation some how.  He's done some really nice sim-process work including some nice grey scale stuff.

I think I could do a decent job with the 5 color version... It's just not in their budget.

Pierre... Well, didn't you just kind of say the same thing?  You said "start off with really big dots and work your way to something smaller"... that's basically what I'm suggesting too.  I get rid of trying to do 5 levels of half tones that could easily get screwed up if my print stroke isn't proper (and I'm fairly sure that it isn't).  So dot gain will get all screwed up.  If I keep it fairly simple then it won't be so bad.  So I start off with just a little bit of "simple" half tone work in the image and work my way to more complicated stuff as time allows.

Here is a sample (VERY crude) of what I could maybe offer them as an alternative.

What do you think?  Do we lose it all... should I stick to the original?  I don't think they are tied to the grey scale... honestly they did that grey scale in WORD... they are not artist... they are struggling to get me art work is what they are.   Very well intentioned guys that are just trying to do what they can with what limited resources they have available.

[blue moon]

Andy... I'm not so sure that he CAN'T print them as much as it is that something is lost in translation some how.  He's done some really nice sim-process work including some nice grey scale stuff.

I think I could do a decent job with the 5 color version... It's just not in their budget.

Pierre... Well, didn't you just kind of say the same thing?  You said "start off with really big dots and work your way to something smaller"... that's basically what I'm suggesting too.  I get rid of trying to do 5 levels of half tones that could easily get screwed up if my print stroke isn't proper (and I'm fairly sure that it isn't).  So dot gain will get all screwed up.  If I keep it fairly simple then it won't be so bad.  So I start off with just a little bit of "simple" half tone work in the image and work my way to more complicated stuff as time allows.

Here is a sample (VERY crude) of what I could maybe offer them as an alternative.

What do you think?  Do we lose it all... should I stick to the original?  I don't think they are tied to the grey scale... honestly they did that grey scale in WORD... they are not artist... they are struggling to get me art work is what they are.   Very well intentioned guys that are just trying to do what they can with what limited resources they have available.

I'd say print some 25 lpi halftones and get back to us with the results! That will eliminate many of the choices and make it easier to figure out what's next.

pierre

[Frog]

Pierre... Well, didn't you just kind of say the same thing?  You said "start off with really big dots and work your way to something smaller"...

No, I saw it as what he was saying was "maybe Gilligan can't hold a 45 lpi frequency, and should start with something coarser with his test squares"

These test squares will demonstrate what you can hold on your screen, and what dot gain you will experience. You probably will find the 15% - 70% range your comfort zone, realizing that it may well print closer to 25 - 80 or 85%

And yes, this may cost you a screen or two, lol!

btw, I recommend using the 5/1 ratio of frequency to mesh, to further reduce moire risk. That's why I suggested 40 lpi.

[Gilligan]

But essentially we were sort of saying the same thing.

My issue is my technique is weak... so I might have to take a second pass at laying down ink... I'm REAL shaky with if I feel like I'm putting enough ink down even black/red on white (like that other job I showed with the ink creep).  So this will exacerbate my dot gain and make things get "darker" than they are meant if I try to get "too creative" with the half tone shades.  Right?

So what kind of coating (3:1, 2:1?) of emulsion should I do on these 200 mesh screens to get the right EOM for these half tone dots?

[Frog]

The bottom line is if you make the test squares I suggested, and expose and develop and print a screen as you normally do (even if it's three strokes), you will determine three things;
1.what line frequencies you can successfully shoot and develop on a screen.
2. what percentages (especially how low) you can hold
3. how much dot gain do you get from your particular style and technique? (and subsequent compensation required)

This job and subsequent discussion has shown you what is needed at some point, no matter how you choose to handle this particular project

[Gilligan]

So what kind of coating (3:1, 2:1?) of emulsion should I do on these 200 mesh screens to get the right EOM for these half tone dots?

[3Deep]

I would do 1/1, but thats me...I know my emulsion and how it coats.