3 Weeks In, Gauntlet III Initial Thoughts

[alan802]

Ok folks, we've been printing with the G3 for 3 weeks now, and the last 2 weeks we've printed more shirts than in any other 2 week period since we've been open, and I've only found 2 other months where we printed more garments/impressions than we've done in the last 2 weeks, so yeah, we be busy.

I'm very impressed with the G3 so far.  I worried that we wouldn't be able to do everything the same way, or quite frankly, that the press would be able to run like the RPM (you just never really know until you do it).  The way we print, we push the limits on print speed and pressure, and what I've seen at other shops with other machines tells me that things can be different through no fault of your own.  So aside from the exact printing pressures being used on the RPM versus the G3, and what I know most other shops print with as far as PSI settings, the G3 is printing with much less pressure than what I was thinking would be possible.  I'm printing white ink at 25-30psi on the G3, and on the RPM it's around 22-28psi.  Print speeds for white ink, awesome, this press will fly just like the RPM.  Since it doesn't measure speed digitally like the RPM I can only guess at how fast the squeegee is traveling, but we're doing the exact same thing on each press with print speed and I think the G3 will run at about 35-40"/sec at it's fastest and the RPM will go up to 30"/sec.

The Regi System:  This one worried me a bit.  I've done about 10 multi-colored jobs on the G3 of over 3 colors, and so far they've all been finished with no more than 3 test prints.  I did a 6 color left chest on Friday afternoon, and I got it ready to run with only 2 test prints and the colors were all butt to butt, on a base.  After the pallets were warmed up, we ran that job at 800+ pieces/hr.  So the system works as good on the G3 as it did on the RPM, thumbs up.

Also last week, we ran a 2 color, white, flash, white, and got up to 1080/hr but they were youth sizes and it was very hard to keep that pace for very long.  We did print a 3K piece job in around 5-5.5 hours if I remember correctly.

I've ran a few jobs loading and unloading by myself and doing 450-500/hr is fairly easy to do.  The fastest I could manage on the RPM by myself was closer to 400/hr.  I got up to 550/hr, and I believe I could maintain that speed for hours, but I think realistically 500/hr with one person on the press is pretty good.  The press indexes really fast compared to the RPM.  I don't know how it spins versus the MHM and Roq presses but I think it's right there with them.  A dry cycle on the G3 will yield almost 1800/hr and when I turn the print heads on and run a left chest logo size at a fast speed the press will run 1600/hr no problem.  I can load at 1000/hr and if I had a way to pick the shirts cleanly, like someone opening the shirts for me I could do 1300-1400/hr.  I have a habit of doing a hand wipe motion on all the shirts I load to get any big lint balls or strings out of the way.  I should install a greaser in head one for these bigger jobs and I also should buy the No-Shirt Detector.  I think I could load a bit faster and not worry about anything.

OK, so that was a bunch of fluff and some rambling but I'll use this thread as the base and keep adding things, hopefully on a daily basis at first then I'm sure we'll run out of content to put up.  I also have videos on Youtube but honestly I feel like most everyone on this forum is well above the video content and I seriously doubt this crew would get anything out of what I've done so far.  I'm still trying to find my way with the videos and how/what type of content to do, but essentially what I've posted so far is boring "VLOG" type of junk that I'm afraid many of you will be pissed for me having wasted your valuable time .

I wrote a "manifesto" that was originally within this thread but I went ahead and cut it out and perhaps I'll put it back in at some point if I feel like it's necessary.  It really depends on how things are received in this thread and if anyone feels like they are the subject of a post or a video which I can promise nobody or no company will be in a negative way.  We'll keep everything positive as much as we can and any negative criticism will be kept to either of the 2 machines in our shop and nothing else.  I might feel the need to compare a certain feature to another brand press but I'll keep things factual and not get into subjective issues.

Lot's more to talk about, but I ain't got that kind of time on my hands these days.   

[alan802]

I guess these days I just throw down so much truth that nobody can even muster up a response .  That's ok, I was an only child, I grew up entertaining myself. 

I'd like to give some details of how the transition has been from a print technique/settings standpoint going from a fantastic RPM press that up until a few months ago was just a stone cold killer, now she's developing a lot of air leaks since we've moved her.  I'm not sure if there is a relationship between the new air leaks and the move or if it's just something that finally broke over all these years.  I have leaks coming from the air regulators and various other parts of the pneumatic system.  Some choppers are so bad it won't print on those heads so I'm dropping good print heads.  I'm down to about 7 good ones now, with two flashes so it's really only a 6 color at best, 5 color at worst. 

Ok, so back to the printing details, what have we had to change from the RPM to the G3?  Nothing.  Next subject...just kidding.  I'll discuss with myself.  I wondered what kind of pressures and speeds we'd achieve with the G3, and it will do everything the RPM has done, except a slightly higher PSI setting on the head.  I don't believe the downward force is any more or less than what we did on the RPM, it's the same overall system, but different choppers, different regulators, so there is bound to be some difference there.  The main reason I worried about this is because you don't see a lot of people talking about running white ink pressures in the 20's, regardless of press so I wondered if it was the press or the way the shop operates, and seems like most of it is just shop specific.  I do believe all plastisol shops should strive to lower their print pressures and speed up their print speeds, but for whatever reason it seems like it's not done that often.  This forum included.  But it's really none of my business how other shops print, and if they want to use 50 psi then I can't change that.  But I hope everyone understands that for some strange reason, I genuinely want to help others print better, even total strangers.  I hope it doesn't rub people the wrong way with me always bringing it up and at times it feels like people think I'm speaking down to them but I know with 100% certainty you'll get better results across the board.   Crisper prints, more opacity, higher production speeds, use less ink, and to get flack for trying to help others is kind of jacked up, but oh well.  I try not to take it personal and I know my intentions are genuinely good so I can deal with some negativity and some shade, at least to this small degree.  I've seen a lot of good, well-meaning people run away from forums because of stuff like that and it's a damn shame.  But it is what it is and if someone doesn't want to deal with any negative stuff on the internetsweb I sure as hell don't blame them for cutting it from their daily lives. You know what they say, the road to Hell and good intentions....yeah.

So the essentials of plastisol printing for textile shops that we use here definitely transfer from an RPM to a G3, and to an air head Diamondback, from a 1991 American Centurian to a 12 year old Challenger II, but what all those machines have in common is the traditional, 4-chopper style print heads.  I've been to quite a few shops and played around with different machines but I have enough experience with the machines I've mentioned above to know our methods work on all of them quite well. 

I need to spend some quality time on other brands to see how our methods work, and I'm sure with so many of the ISS award winners using Sroques and MHMs that they do just fine.  But I don't do the award printing stuff so anything I say about how those are done will be void of any real experience and mostly guessing on my part.  I've been told things and heard things about the time and effort that goes into it, but then after hearing 10 examples of that you hear 10 more saying they just grabbed a shirt off the dryer in the middle of a production run and submitted it for the award show so I have no clue really.  MAD props to those shops that can snag a random shirt off the dryer and place in a show, that's in-freaking-credible. I know if I were trying to win something I wouldn't care if I had to double stroke or run multiple revolutions to get a shirt looking right, WHATEVER IT TAKES!! , but running production jobs with quick turn times I can't/won't do that.  You have to know when to say when on how much time you want to spend fine tuning things.  Most customers wouldn't know a quality print if it bit them on the anus but they will be happy as hell if a crappy print is done a day before you told them it would be, then price, and finally quality.  Not all customers, but most of ours are this way.

Ok, diarrhea of the fingers this morning is over, gotta get back to running this fine press.

[TheGhost]

I appreciate the posts and am reading them!

[GraphicDisorder]

Good stuff, glad to hear your thoughts.

[blue moon]

few counters and info points

our ROQ YOU maxes out at 1035 and fastest we've had it print ubase/flash/top white so far has been 950/hour. 'don't know if we will be able to eek out more. For some reason, the dry cycling and fast printing run at the same speed. The ROQ ECO is an XL version so it runs slower than the regular. We've hit 1170/hour on it and there is very little left to go faster, possibly that might be as fast as she'll go. Dry cycling is about 1300-1400, can't remember exactly. MHM E-Type (and the specs for few of their other models) dry cycle at 1400. We've gotten ours over 1100 plenty of times. ROQ has lifting heads, MHM has lifting carousel. Thus, ROQs are easier to load. I would imagine the you are seeing similar results between the G3 and RPM for the same reasons.

We print at 50+ PSI. Even the MHM required more pressure and everybody I know that prints on metal platens is using more pressure. Four cylinders vs one scissor setup is not making any difference for us. If there is anybody out there that can print at 25 PSI on the metal platens, I'd like to know about it. 'not saying it's impossible, just that I don't know how to do it and we've had some pretty sharp ppl look into it with us. Joe and I had some conversations about it and are not seeing eye to eye on it. He did say that what we are getting out of it seems to be about as good as it gets. He'll be here for few days in the next month or so and we'll have time to really test it. If it does not get better with him I'lll call that myth busted for the metal (no rubber) platens.

I also think that you will get better at not having to micro the jobs as you go along. Danny said it took him 3 months to tweak the system so it's working fine. We are seeing no micro setups here and there, but we are changing the systems completely and having to re-engineer the equipment to accommodate theh MHM screens with the bushings on them. We've given up on trying to make the rollers with the pins on them work, so those are having the pins removed. Our transition has been much slower as the systems are quite different. Wish we were moving along as fast.

Our winners all required extra work on setup and pre-press. Almost all of them had higher level separations and almost all were printed more than once before they got to the level they needed to be. Only one was a regular customer shirt from a production run, all the rest were specifically designed from scratch to be in the competition. Either we commissioned higher level art or requested the customer provide us with something better. In some cases we licensed high end artwork in exchange for free shirts. As far as I know, most of the shirts that win the competition have extra effort (and a lot of it) put in them. Andy Anderson is the only one that puts in that much work on the print regardless if they are going into the competition or not and from what he said, every shirt he enters is a pull from the production run.  Wish I could say the same. . .

pierre

[alan802]

Has anyone with metal pallets done some testing with a rubber topped pallet, a side-by-side comparison?  A few hours, one pallet and a decent design to play around with and you'd have about all the info you'd need to make the decision or come to the conclusion that rubber tops make a huge difference or they don't offer any real benefit.  On our old centurian we had rubber tops but they were so old and hard that it wasn't any different than printing on the metal.  I swapped out the rubber but unfortunately at that time I didn't know anything about the process so I didn't do a compare/contrast experiment before and after.  In those days we were lucky to get a 3 color job on darks on an 8-color press with one revolution.  It was one struggle after another, I don't miss those days much at all. 

[screenprintguy]

gotta love it.

[Stinkhorn Press]

In those days we were lucky to get a 3 color job on darks on an 8-color press with one revolution.

HAY i resemble that remark!

Not much to comment, but definitely watching and reading. We, with Joe's assistance are attempting to fast track to 1/3 of your gained knowledge.
RPM, synergy, low pressure, just ignorant and not so hot at any of it yet.
We appreciate the chatter and the videos!

[Colin]

On our 12 color sportsman (a 12 color press with arms from a 10 color press = a smaller footprint and shorter arms for the platens) - we can print white ink at 25 pounds or lower depending.  The depending is based on several factors:  Narrower squeegee blades - needs less pressure to make full contact.  150S mesh with a high EOM.  A good quality fast shearing cotton ink.  Bonus: The shorter arms from the 10 color press actually help tremendously with lower pressure printing - less pallet deflection.... yes, if you pay attention - you can actually see a difference in ink shear/deposit from top to bottom of the print on presses with longer arms and longer print strokes.

I can not duplicate the low pressure settings even remotely on our 14 color.  Longer arms = a greater chance of pallet deflection.  Necessitating higher pressures to get the ink to properly shear.

End result - Everyone should be able to print a nice clean bright white if they know their presses and the reasons behind their press variables.

As Allen clearly does. 

Love your reports and the videos you have uploaded!

[alan802]

Thanks guys!  I appreciate the compliments.

Pallet deflection, one of the things I was somewhat concerned about but I started paying a lot of attention to the RPM and it's deflection, and honestly, it's quite pronounced.  Knowing how it is on the RPM and how little it has affected us I then wanted it to be less obviously with the G3 and it certainly is good in this area.  I think the Sroque and MHM are the best in the industry with pallet deflection, but the G3 has been solid and in no way is it bad enough to cause any negative issues on press.  Do I wish it were ZERO deflection?  Sure, but I think that once you reach a certain level of deflection resistance that anything beyond that has diminishing returns for the manufacturer.  It is FAR better than what I had heard from competing manufacturers over the last few years, it's way better than the RPM, and is not going to cause anyone any problems whatsoever, not even close.

I'm keeping my eye on how well the pallets and print heads maintain their parallelism/calibration.  The techs did a good job with the calibration but I need to go through and tidy it up a bit.  I think for 99% of the shops it would be perfectly fine but I'm a nut job, and a 1/32" off on a few pallets is enough for me to want to bring back to my standards.  I realize that my standards are way beyond what is acceptable and needed to achieve high quality prints. 

[ZooCity]

Sounds like a smooth transition so far, congrats.

We will be making the switch from printing on rubber topped platens with dual chopper style heads to printing on honeycomb with self leveling heads.  I know it will change how we print on our main press. 

I think anything you place below the substrate, like rubber, that helps even out inconsistencies on the plane of the squeegee travel inherently helps.  With rubber especially, you likely get a degree of pressure frorm below the fabric helping to create an optimal pressure dynamic. 

Honeycomb can't be coated with buna-n rubber without delaminating the honeycomb from the top al sheet due to the way the heat is absorbed, or at least that's my understanding.  So it's a trade off there because honeycomb platens with a good print arm and platen bracket mounting system will always be in plane.  Combine that with a self-leveling chopper system and you should have a win in 99% of print situations with minimal or near zero maintenance when it comes to leveling the machine.  That's the gamble I'm taking but I'm nervous about that 1% of jobs that might need the muscle and manual adjustability a dual chopper system can provide. 

That said, you can spec an s.roque machine with a 4 chopper print head so it wasn't a major factor in press choice for me. 

We do get good plastisol printing results on our sportsman- low pressure, fast stroke.  Coverage changes over the length of the stroke due to deflection as Colin mentioned and you eventually loose your fast/light ability and need to add back pressure.  My hope is that a self-leveling system with lower deflection on the print arms will resolve some of this.  Our sporty's print arms don't deflect hardly at all but the heads pop up significantly at low pressures.  Deflection is a necessary evil with most press designs but it drives me nuts. 

I think you made a good choice for your print style and high level of skill you have.  Those series III presses keep the platens in plane much better since nobody is freewheeling them.  Knowing how you dial in your plane I think it's going to kick a lot of ass for you.  You might get aggravated at it going out of plane compared to the RPM but that's coming from a fellow nut job. 

Did you get a kwik clamp yet?  If not buy the system today. 

[blue moon]

Thanks guys!  I appreciate the compliments.

Pallet deflection, one of the things I was somewhat concerned about but I started paying a lot of attention to the RPM and it's deflection, and honestly, it's quite pronounced.  Knowing how it is on the RPM and how little it has affected us I then wanted it to be less obviously with the G3 and it certainly is good in this area.  I think the Sroque and MHM are the best in the industry with pallet deflection, but the G3 has been solid and in no way is it bad enough to cause any negative issues on press.  Do I wish it were ZERO deflection?  Sure, but I think that once you reach a certain level of deflection resistance that anything beyond that has diminishing returns for the manufacturer.  It is FAR better than what I had heard from competing manufacturers over the last few years, it's way better than the RPM, and is not going to cause anyone any problems whatsoever, not even close.

I'm keeping my eye on how well the pallets and print heads maintain their parallelism/calibration.  The techs did a good job with the calibration but I need to go through and tidy it up a bit.  I think for 99% of the shops it would be perfectly fine but I'm a nut job, and a 1/32" off on a few pallets is enough for me to want to bring back to my standards.  I realize that my standards are way beyond what is acceptable and needed to achieve high quality prints.

very similar with the new install here. MHM had some minor deflection that was not influencing the print from what I can tell. Few others thought different (Forward Printing for example) and switched to ROQ for stiffer platen support. I think we had 1/16th of an inch before, I am not seeing any on the new presses.
Also similar with the tolerances. The press is true, but not the level I'd like to see. We will have to tinker with it to get it to within a thousandth or two. Luckily, the install tech explained how to do it as it is not really very intuitive.

Please forgive the chiming in, not trying to hijack the thread, just 'provide parallel thoughts from a different perspective.

pierre

[ZooCity]

fwiw, I talked with the dude from forward awhile back and they were good with the MHM but struggled a little due to deflection on max image sizes.  The s.roque solved that for them.   I shied away from MHM a couple years ago, which was almost a no-brainer in my eyes at the time, due to platen deflection concerns.

[blue moon]

fwiw, I talked with the dude from forward awhile back and they were good with the MHM but struggled a little due to deflection on max image sizes.  The s.roque solved that for them.   I shied away from MHM a couple years ago, which was almost a no-brainer in my eyes at the time, due to platen deflection concerns.

just to clarify, Forward was running the E-Types which at the time were entry level presses. The S-Type has beefier support and the 4000 style arms are about as big as a semi truck and just as sturdy. My thought was they were comparing apples to oranges . . .

pierre

[RICK STEFANICK]

Thanks guys!  I appreciate the compliments.

Pallet deflection, one of the things I was somewhat concerned about but I started paying a lot of attention to the RPM and it's deflection, and honestly, it's quite pronounced.  Knowing how it is on the RPM and how little it has affected us I then wanted it to be less obviously with the G3 and it certainly is good in this area.  I think the Sroque and MHM are the best in the industry with pallet deflection, but the G3 has been solid and in no way is it bad enough to cause any negative issues on press.  Do I wish it were ZERO deflection?  Sure, but I think that once you reach a certain level of deflection resistance that anything beyond that has diminishing returns for the manufacturer.  It is FAR better than what I had heard from competing manufacturers over the last few years, it's way better than the RPM, and is not going to cause anyone any problems whatsoever, not even close.



I'm keeping my eye on how well the pallets and print heads maintain their parallelism/calibration.  The techs did a good job with the calibration but I need to go through and tidy it up a bit.  I think for 99% of the shops it would be perfectly fine but I'm a nut job, and a 1/32" off on a few pallets is enough for me to want to bring back to my standards.  I realize that my standards are way beyond what is acceptable and needed to achieve high quality prints.

very similar with the new install here. MHM had some minor deflection that was not influencing the print from what I can tell. Few others thought different (Forward Printing for example) and switched to ROQ for stiffer platen support. I think we had 1/16th of an inch before, I am not seeing any on the new presses.
Also similar with the tolerances. The press is true, but not the level I'd like to see. We will have to tinker with it to get it to within a thousandth or two. Luckily, the install tech explained how to do it as it is not really very intuitive.

Please forgive the chiming in, not trying to hijack the thread, just 'provide parallel thoughts from a different perspective.

pierre

OMG, You fellas would go frigging bizerk running one of these cream puff 94' challenger 14/16's over here. Please tell me neither of you regularly wear a pocket protector with a temp prob and a ruler.....LOL