bobbin tension issues

[bimmridder]

Put the gauges on the list of sh!t you're giving away

[1964GN]

The gauges are pretty darn helpful for a newbie. As you become more sensitive the "feel" of the machine the gauges become unnecessary, for the most part.

[ftembroidery]

If I start a fight here or step on some toes, I want to apologize for any hurt feelings up front. 

I'm a retired Master Mechanic with 45 years in the trade.  Both on cars/light trucks and aircraft.  Would you get on an airplane knowing the mechanic put the wing spars on and just used the "calibrated elbow" he was born with? Would "it feels tight enough" be good enough?  I've learned to respect the people that design the machine (car, airplane, embroidery machine) as having more insight into the proper operation and maintenance than myself.  I'm not going to think I know more than the designer.  Arrogance and narcissism is not a desirable characteristic (with the possible exception of running for political office).

You don't have to be off on bobbin tension by much at all to cause more headaches then a liquid lunch at the local restaurant can dull.  Gauges (properly calibrated) are the ONLY way to put everything on a level playing field.  I once had a thread gauge get "out of whack" because a nut had come loose and I hadn't noticed it right away.  I have a specific gram-weight for both gauges so that I can be certain they are in proper calibration.  I don't have tension issues.  When setting bobbin tension, the adjustment is so critical that just putting the screwdriver in the slot of the screw and THINKING tighten can change tension.

We use the Magna-Glide magnetic core bobbins.  I have found them to be excellent.  I get rid of the first couple of yards before I set tension and I get almost ZERO lint in the case.  I have tried the Madeira magnetic sided bobbins and was so displeased with the quality (out of round, shaft off-center, etc) that I provided a strongly worded letter of complaint to Madeira and they exchanged them for Magna-Glide.

Be certain your machine(s) is/are clean and properly adjusted (hook timing, etc.), cleaned and lubricated.  With properly calibrated/functioning gauges, set your tensions (upper & lower) to your manufacturers recommendations and see what happens.  After that, proceed with MINOR or FINE TUNING adjustments as to fit your style of embroidery, prevent pucker, adjust for type of material and weave or knit.  Make those adjustments ONE AT A TIME and record the results. 

Remember....pilots are taught to TRUST THEIR GAUGES and NOT to "fly by the seat of their pants".

[inkman996]

If I start a fight here or step on some toes, I want to apologize for any hurt feelings up front. 

I'm a retired Master Mechanic with 45 years in the trade.  Both on cars/light trucks and aircraft.  Would you get on an airplane knowing the mechanic put the wing spars on and just used the "calibrated elbow" he was born with? Would "it feels tight enough" be good enough?  I've learned to respect the people that design the machine (car, airplane, embroidery machine) as having more insight into the proper operation and maintenance than myself.  I'm not going to think I know more than the designer.  Arrogance and narcissism is not a desirable characteristic (with the possible exception of running for political office).

You don't have to be off on bobbin tension by much at all to cause more headaches then a liquid lunch at the local restaurant can dull.  Gauges (properly calibrated) are the ONLY way to put everything on a level playing field.  I once had a thread gauge get "out of whack" because a nut had come loose and I hadn't noticed it right away.  I have a specific gram-weight for both gauges so that I can be certain they are in proper calibration.  I don't have tension issues.  When setting bobbin tension, the adjustment is so critical that just putting the screwdriver in the slot of the screw and THINKING tighten can change tension.

We use the Magna-Glide magnetic core bobbins.  I have found them to be excellent.  I get rid of the first couple of yards before I set tension and I get almost ZERO lint in the case.  I have tried the Madeira magnetic sided bobbins and was so displeased with the quality (out of round, shaft off-center, etc) that I provided a strongly worded letter of complaint to Madeira and they exchanged them for Magna-Glide.

Be certain your machine(s) is/are clean and properly adjusted (hook timing, etc.), cleaned and lubricated.  With properly calibrated/functioning gauges, set your tensions (upper & lower) to your manufacturers recommendations and see what happens.  After that, proceed with MINOR or FINE TUNING adjustments as to fit your style of embroidery, prevent pucker, adjust for type of material and weave or knit.  Make those adjustments ONE AT A TIME and record the results. 

Remember....pilots are taught to TRUST THEIR GAUGES and NOT to "fly by the seat of their pants".

Sure it sounds good and all but we are not flying airplanes. Any good operator can look at the top and bottom of embroidery and see exactly what needs to be set. Its experience and pretty much a craft. If your shop and the people working in it have been running excellent embroidery for over 15 years with out a gauge ever then your doing something right. We have had so many techs come though our shop over the years either tuning up machines or installing new ones and never has one ever pulled out a gauge. I am not saying you are incorrect in your thought process its good procedure if it works for you. Me or any of the other people here that run emb can set tension on a bobbin in a mere few seconds every time any time. Just like any machinist they know their personal lathe/mill and its quirks even if the dial indicators show a tiny amount of run off they know the machines and how to run them to be accurate.

[mooseman]

Gauges are fine if you don't have a clue and don't want to ever have one.
All embroidery machines are quirky pieces of mechanical junk. The actual complexity of the machinery comes no where close to the $ we pay to own the junk, that is simply the price of admission.
At the end of the day the person who fixes the machine has to be the person who operates the machine.

Over the years I have come to know my 4 head lunker so well I can tell just by the sound when things are not going well.
Additionally I think I know the characteristics well enough to know what speed to run initially simply based on looking at the design and the digitizing. We me and that machine have an understanding, it talks to me and I do not let anyone else ever lay a hand on it.
mooseman

[Homer]

Gauges are fine if you don't have a clue and don't want to ever have one.
All embroidery machines are quirky pieces of mechanical junk. The actual complexity of the machinery comes no where close to the $ we pay to own the junk, that is simply the price of admission.
At the end of the day the person who fixes the machine has to be the person who operates the machine.

Over the years I have come to know my 4 head lunker so well I can tell just by the sound when things are not going well.
Additionally I think I know the characteristics well enough to know what speed to run initially simply based on looking at the design and the digitizing. We me and that machine have an understanding, it talks to me and I do not let anyone else ever lay a hand on it.
mooseman

making that a hard sell for me moose

I always went by "feel" but that didn't seem right to me because I just didn't know what was right..if it sewed, was it right? sure, close enough I guess.... I wanted to eliminate variables, I'd like to tell my embroidery girl to set the bobbin to 180, top tension to 150 and roll. I set the tensions to the manufacturer specs but it didn't seem to work.

The magnetic sided madeira bobbins you are speaking of are the ones I tried, they were horrendous. I had to get something quick and that's all I could get. I went back to the magnetic core ones and they are at least consistent. I thought everyone used a gauge, seems to make the most sense to me, decent starting point anyway.

[Itsa Little CrOoked]

Count me in for gauges. (AND MAGNA GLIDE BOBBINS!) But they guages arent perfect.

We have turnover in our shop. I ALWAYS show them gauges at the very start, and move them towards the "drop test" right away. The extremely cheapo stick gauges I've seen are miserable if real accuracy in upper thread tensions is the goal. But if understood as a learning tool, to compare one to another, I will always think new hires can benefit.

Balance between upper and lower tensions is a higher goal than overall tension for most work.  Huge, complicated  runs with lots of coverage might be an exception due to pucker and pulling the design "out of register" for subsequent colors. Perhaps the "Tug 'O' War" between top and bottom is less important than a proper upper setting on those. For balance, yiu cant beat a column test, observing "thirds".

But what do I know?!? I'm a screen printer.  All I ever do with the embroidery machines is repair them and tweak them when the embroiderers can't seem to. And I've yet to see a single hired hand CONSISTENTLY turn a thumb screw the right direction upside down. I'll walk through and "hear" a cap frame driver rattling and know INSTANTLY they've turned the locking screws OUT to the limit, instead of in. "Can you not hear that!?" "You've got the screws backed out all the way again"

Grrrr....

[Doug B]

  I'll add to this little debate that (at least in my experience of 30+ years in embroidery)
EVERY machine is different. Unless you are running all brand new machines in perfect
factory condition you cannot go by a gauge alone. A lot of us have machines that are
AT LEAST 10 years old and they obviously don't play by the same set of rules as their
younger counterparts. I will admit that gauges have their place and are a good starting
place but other things must be taken into consideration.

[mooseman]

We have a 4 head and a single head machine.
The bobbin cases are marked so they are dedicated to that head.
Bobbins are set and tested with the drop test and while not all 4 are the same relative to each other it is not important. What is important is the bobbin tension is set to balance the top tension of the specific head.

It is a PITA but if I am unsure of a given tension I have a standard tension test, We run a 1/4 wide column about 1 inch long and check the bottom threads for the 1/3  1/3  1/3 association top to bobbin thread.
Adjustments are made to top thread tensions only, we never balance the tensions with the bobbin tension.

It is important to understand that on a multi head machine the tensions across the heads do not all have to be the same relative to each head, ONLY the bobbin & upper tensions (on each head individually) have to be in balance.

here is a simple video if you are not familiar with 1/3  1/3  1/3 bottom thread association
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jSVgs4JeVw

here is a simple video if you are not familiar with the bobbin drop tension test
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWidGXYTzSI

At the end of the day this embroidery thing can be a real pain as you discovered Homer but there is always a solution as the problems are always the same we have all seen over time.


mooseman

[mk162]

I am a huge gauge fan here as well.  I also use it to let me know if my top thread is out or not.  If I have perfect bottom tension and I see a ton of bobbin on the underside I know it's my top thread.  Our machine tech talks about how most shops he is in has both tensions cranked down because they have no idea that one may have been correct and adjust the wrong one.

The gauges also remove one variable for us.

Question, how do you guys measure EOM?  Fingernail?

[whitewater]

What are the issues that arise with the madeira magnetic sided bobbins? we use them and i think they are so much better than the coats ones we used to use.

is there an issue I'm not aware of?

[ftembroidery]

What I ran into with the Madeira magnetic sided bobbins were sloppy manufacturing issues.  Badly off-center shaft and out of round sides.  They would spin 270 degrees and then drag heavily on the inside of the bobbin case for 90 degrees.

[Admiral]

What are the issues that arise with the madeira magnetic sided bobbins? we use them and i think they are so much better than the cars ones we used to use.

is there an issue I'm not aware of?

Did not run consistently at all for us.  We have new Tajima machines.  We did take out the springs for the magnetic sided bobbins.

I like the 503 paper sided Madeira with a backlash spring.  Magna Glide could be better but haven't tested, have been very happy with these ones so haven't tried them yet.  I feel like only 1-2 bobbins out of a whole box are an issue at all.

[Itsa Little CrOoked]

<snip> I feel like only 1-2 bobbins out of a whole box are an issue at all. <snip>

You'll have a rounding error to zero issues with magna glide bobbins, box after box after many boxes. Along with the same tension from start to finish on each bobbin.

We had lots of issues before we switched over to them 100%.

[mk162]

Yeah, I can't think of the last bobbin we had to throw away from Magna-Glide.  I had a friend of mine come in and run our equipment once, she switched over the next day and hasn't looked back either.

It was as big of a switch as going to poly thread for us.  Much fewer problems overall.