Roller Fames and more.

[GraphicDisorder]

Currently we run 23x31 static frames (which limit our print area a bit) with a few static 25x36's (ideal screen size id like be using).  Considering moving to all 25x36's.  Fighting with doing statics or just going for it with rollers.  For those of you that have went from static to rollers, did you do it all at once, or did you phase in some rollers?  Where can I get the best deal on rollers as well.  Ive looked around but not real hard yet. 

Also I have talked to some shops about this and some guys are making the mesh, some are using shurlock panels, and so on.  What's everyones thoughts on this and whats better or what you can get by with and be satisfied with it.

Also I think if I do this our dip tank will be too small so what are guys doing for a dipatank on these larger screens? 

One of the driving factors for us to do this is for example yesterday we were running a 17 inch tall design, we had to run the press a little slower than I would have liked due to the smaller 23x31 frames. 

[tpitman]

Manual press only. I started using rollers almost from the get-go due to warped wood frames. As for bolt mesh vs. shurloc panels, I think the shurloc panels are worth the extra expense, unless you're prone to popping a lot of mesh out of carelessness. I never got very good at stretching my own up to the tensions I like. Busted as much as I was successful with. On the other hand, I've never busted a mesh panel through tensioning. It takes all of the guesswork out of it. Keep your frames free of burrs and crud, handle them carefully, and you'll get good service out of the panels. Having a pneumatic table also prompts me to throw my frames on it right after reclaiming, check tension, and retension if necessary. That way I know everything I've got has been retensioned or checked after the last job. Everything except for 305s are at 35nm.

[Clark]

I used static for years, and put out good prints on a manual with them..or at least I thought.  When I went automatic I bought all Roller Frames, with shurloc panels.  One thing that will really help lessen the learning cure is buying a Roller Master table, you can hit the ground running with rollers with shurloc's and the roller table...there really is no learning curve using them.  There are plenty of deals out there, for instance, I got 100 M3's and a roller table for 3K.  There are some 25x36 M3's on M&R's board, brand new for $65 a piece I think.  But if you keep looking and don't mind cleaning up some dirty ones, you can get a much better deal.  If it were me, I would buy the roller master table first, then start adding Rollers into the mix as they come available.

[GraphicDisorder]

I used static for years, and put out good prints on a manual with them..or at least I thought.  When I went automatic I bought all Roller Frames, with shurloc panels.  One thing that will really help lessen the learning cure is buying a Roller Master table, you can hit the ground running with rollers with shurloc's and the roller table...there really is no learning curve using them.  There are plenty of deals out there, for instance, I got 100 M3's and a roller table for 3K.  There are some 25x36 M3's on M&R's board, brand new for $65 a piece I think.  But if you keep looking and don't mind cleaning up some dirty ones, you can get a much better deal.  If it were me, I would buy the roller master table first, then start adding Rollers into the mix as they come available.

100 M3's and roller table for 3k, sign me up.  LOL.  Where those 23x31's or 25x36's? 

I am going to make that switch to larger screens, just will make it easier to run faster on tall prints.  Today for example I did 17 inch tall print as well, we were running around 43dz an hour with 1 head double stroking.  With longer screens I could have cranked up the speed some more on the print stroke and did the job faster.  Plus with the 25x36's I will also have a dual use frame, can use that to do the over sized 23 inch printing we do.  Rather than having 2 screen sizes. 

[Clark]

Ha..yeah.  Roller table for $1K and 100 M3's for $20 each.  Most still had mesh, but I did have to take a lot of ink and junk off of them.  They look great now after some cleaning.  It looks like you do quite a bit of oversize, so I think staying with all 25x36 would be a good idea, you can always print small on an oversize screen.

[alan802]

25x36 newmans would be my dream setup.  I use the shurloc panels because I think they are worth the extra money, I can stretch a screen in probably 1/3 of the time and I've never busted anything while stretching.  The shurloc panels are a good bit more expensive, but I think they are worth it.  If we printed as many larger prints like you, there is no way I'd stick with static alums.  If you went 25x36 newmans, you'd see a huge difference in you setup times and print speed, never have to double stroke anything, there are numerous benefits to higher tension.  I'd be willing to bet that the 25x36 static alums aren't as tight as the 23x31's and I've never had decent tension out of a 23x31 static.  Lot's of little problems went away when we changed back to newman rollers and the shurloc ez frames.  I'm a huge proponent of high tension.  When we print with a static alum now days, it sucks, I hate doing it and we only do it when we run out of the good screens.

[GraphicDisorder]

Ha..yeah.  Roller table for $1K and 100 M3's for $20 each.  Most still had mesh, but I did have to take a lot of ink and junk off of them.  They look great now after some cleaning.  It looks like you do quite a bit of oversize, so I think staying with all 25x36 would be a good idea, you can always print small on an oversize screen.

Ya thats my goal, just a huge investment if I did it all "new" and buying used can be hit and miss as we all know.  But we are doing more and more printing so I figure soon I will bite the bullet. 

[shellyky]

in addition to my diptank only accepting 23x31, my 10 screen drying cabinet only accepts 23x31, and our triloc is 23x31...so i'd need a new triloc and i think its going to be right on the line of fitting on the exposure unit LOL...so its a big investment of new equipment as well as the table and screens.

[Evo]

I was using craptastic Diamond Chase frames but these were still better than static frames.

I switched over to all Newman M3's when I picked up a bunch of used ones. Nice thing about M3's is they can look like they went through a war - powder coating coming off, dents, etc but they will still hold tension.

Keep checking all the used equip sites and brokers. Once in awhile there will be these mass sales of used frames.

Only issue I've had with buying used is spending the time removing old tape and cleaning up the frames before use. As long as you get them as clean as possible from the start, they will last for years.


As far as printing, get the tension level up as high as the mesh will go and keep it there. You will print with less pressure and use alot less ink. The screens will reclaim and dehaze easier. Off contact will be lower and registration will be better. Your skin will look younger and your teeth will be whiter.

[ftembroidery]

You can use carburetor cleaner to get off almost anything like tape and other gunk from the roller frames.

[ZooCity]

Manual printing here.  We went from static alum 20x24 to 25x30 M3s all at once with a roller master.  I don't like having multiple frame sizes/types one bit so I got rid of the statics straight away.  I would've gone 25x36 from the get go but that's a long reach and extra weight for a manual printer to wrangle on press. We also don't need the extra space at the top and bottom for the squeegee/flood carriage to complete its cycle either.  

Bought the first set used with the roller master for a song, I think it was about $900 for the roller master and $15 a frame.  Used roller masters are a great deal, used roller frames not so much in my opinion.  Even with the very best condition used rollers I've picked up, and the last set of 30 we got were in cherry condition from the start, there's still far too much labor involved in getting them clean and smooth and into production.  I'm buying new or very, very lightly used only from here on out.  

I built our dry cab originally to accommodate 25x36ers and made sure to buy racks and tanks that could hold 25" wide screens so the transition was no big thing.  We have a large franmar/blackline tank for stripping and an upright, blue Easiway tank for plain water soaking.  Both do the job just fine.

For high tension screens w. newman roller mesh I like to use bolt mesh so I can load it just how I want it for the tension.  A screen at 55n has much different requirements for corner softening (and even reverse curve technique to prevent bowing) than a middle tension screen at 30n or under.  Bolt mesh gives you freedom to see what works for each mesh/tension which is it's upside.  Having discovered the middle-tension "S" mesh I'm now all about the shur-locs for speed of loading with those.  They've been a real luxury to use and the folks at shur-loc are excellent to work with so far.  I need to whittle down my mesh choices and pull the trigger on a whole mess of them, built custom for our obscure frame size, later today.  They are indeed spendier than mesh by the yard but at least you don't need buy locking strips and you can save 15-20 minutes per screen using them.  Loading bolt mesh isn't such a hard thing to do once you learn it well, but it is definitely an acquired skill and I wouldn't expect just anyone to learn that side of it in less than a few days of getting to know it.   Hence the panels for us where we can use them- it lets anyone in the shop re-load and tension mesh.  And, though I haven't tried it yet, you can pop out the panels and swap 'em for different meshes as needed which means you can squeak by with less screens in the production cycle.

If switching up to the larger format will speed production then go for it.  That tri-loc will sell easily, ditto for the smaller dip tanks and, not sure what light unit you have, but big ass vac frames seem to be easy to find used for a good price right now.  We picked one up and I'm stoked to be able to shoot 2 screens at once soon as well as accommodate large format screens.  As far as the drying cab goes, why not just build a drying room and you can roll the racks right in there?  

[Evo]

You can use carburetor cleaner to get off almost anything like tape and other gunk from the roller frames.

Posted this in another thread about cleaning a press:

http://www.realmilkpaint.com/citrus.html


Will make most roller frames spotless.

Pure limonene. Smells like orange oil. Will even remove the chemical resistant adhesive from the white Polyken screen tape.

[Evo]

One more advantage to the limonene - it does the work. Put it on and let it sit, the adhesives will come off very easily. Scrub a little bit, then clean off with some simple green and a pressure washer.

The trick with used frames is don't spend much time prepping them for use, this defeats buying used in the first place. If it takes longer to clean up a frame than to assemble a new one, then you are eliminating the savings.

[john52]

We changed over to 25x36 M3s years ago.  We bought a new roller master and 100 frames to start.  Later we bought another 200 frames from a guy who was downsizing for $25 each.  I was amazed to hear him say that before he started his liquidation he had 1800 25x36 M3s.  We actually didn't need 300 and sold some of them for $30 each.  A couple of years later my partner and I split and my frame inventory was cut in half.  I have since bought some M3s used that were like new.   I believe our inventory is around 175 frames now.

It does seem like big money when you are starting, but once you have a good supply of quality frames you are set for life. 

[Binkspot]

We have been running static and roller frames since we started. I prefer the rollers but we don't have a table so if I am not around to stretch screens they don't get done.
I recently went to send a bunch of statics out to be stretched and found it cheaper to buy a few sets of the Panel Frames. We picked up four to try but not convinced they are the answer but they are easy to put together. The same people make the roller panel. I have not used or seen one up close but is supposed to be about the same price new as other roller frames used. They will be coming out with the 25"x36" later this year and looking forward to trying them. They also have a nice stretching table again half the price of others.