Let's Talk Tension

[alan802]

I still haven't put the conversion kit on a frame yet.  They are sitting there collecting dust.  I think if you could get a company that stretches statics to do real quality work, then you could get them to stretch statics with Murakami Smartmesh S threads in the 22-28 newton range and have a hell of a product.  But I have yet to see a company that stretches statics that could get all of their screens up to the mid and upper 20's so I doubt anyone could do that with the S thread mesh.  I thought about trying to set up a business that stretches statics but use premium mesh like the S thread, then guarantee tension levels in the mid 20's, but I ain't got time to start something like that, and who knows if anyone would even buy them.  I know I would if someone would guarantee that my statics would be 156's at 25 newtons, 110's at 30, etc once they are work hardened, I'd pay the premium. 

[mk162]

I have heard that there are a couple people working on static that don't lose tension...and are pretty high tension.

There is a market.

[3Deep]

If I could get a frame that would stay at 25 to 27n all the time I would happy as can be...we just had a mesh rip during a runn what a pain.  I,ve got some wood frames about 8 years old mesh is loose as an old hounddog, but the frame is still flat.  I bought some of the panel frames when they first came out with the china mesh  since mine are the 20 x 24 they held tension pretty good and still have about 24n not bad.

[alan802]

I asked one of our local suppliers that does stretch screens for some of his customers and had him make me up some statics with 135/48 and asked specifically to make them as close as he could to 25 newtons so we could see how much they relax after a few rounds through production.  Well, it was a disaster because I guess his meter isn't working correctly and when I grabbed one I noticed how loose it was and I guess he saw the look on my face and asked what the problem was.  I pressed on the mesh and guessed that it was 12 newtons and he was stunned that it was that low and so we put my meter on it and sure enough, one was at 13 newtons and the other was at 10!


I was thinking about having him talk to his customers and see who would be interested in paying that extra premium for a premium product but after seeing how bad the first sample screen was I decided to not get into a business venture at this time.

[Screened Gear]

"statics with Murakami Smartmesh S threads in the 22-28 newton range"

I would buy them as long as they know how to glue them. I bought 20 screens in the last month and a half and 7 have come unglued. Their tension was 18 to 22. I have had some screens that are glued really good. I even bought glue just so i can fix screens that are starting to come apart.

[mk162]

Glue?  Heck, we use staple tape for our screens. 

[tonypep]

There are basically two glue systems available. 2-part cyanoacrylate (Lockite) and a single part laquer. The former is faster but less durable the latter takes longer but is more stable for the life of the mesh. Also often the case of mesh adhesion failure is poor frame prepping. There is a bit of craftsmenship to this. Pierre was here for half a day and while we were walking out I noticed an old SPEC stretching table. As mentioned elsewhere I am very interested in looking at stretching static aluminiums that will stabilize to 25-30. That is fine for me. Back in the day most auto shops had stretching equipment and we had a few tricks and tips on this. Some of the reasons pre-stretched sceens fail is cheap mesh and poor procedures that are largely due to time restraints

[alan802]

I would like to say that using high tension and having a perfectly calibrated press isn't a necessity.  Your press needs to be fairly consistent from pallet to pallet and printhead to printhead but it doesn't need to be dead nuts, within a sheet of paper of one another to benefit.  By my standards, our press is out of whack, the pallets are within 1/32" from one another, there might be a corner here and there that's more than that, and we still reap the rewards of high tension screens.  I would guess that your press would have to be really out of parallel to have real problems with high tension screens, meaning maybe 1/8" or so differences in pallet to pallet.  Is that where some of you would guess that your press is as far as parallelism goes?  I know if your press is within 1/32" or even a millimeter out of parallel then you will still benefit greatly with high tension, we are doing it right now.  I don't like the fact that our press isn't perfect, but we have been way too busy for me to calibrate it.

[jsheridan]

Screen tension is nothing but a myth and has no place in this industry.

The static frame is god and always will be. Roller frames are the devil and should be treated as such.

Just keep using static frames and your printing career will go places you never thought possible!
Just think what you can do with all the money you saved buying those 50 used static frames off Digit vs buying some used roller frames and mesh. 

Have Fun!!

[alan802]

Did you have a rough day today John? 

John's ready to fight, stand back burritos.

[jsheridan]

Alan, I applaud your effort in trying to HELP others, you made an incredible argument.. but once the horse is at the pond.. you can't force him to drink.

[squeegee]

I don't think screen tension is a myth, that's not how I took it reading this thread, nor do I think statics are god, nor do I think Newmans are the be all end all of screens.

Proper tension is important, but taking it to an extreme I believe is a myth made large by over zealous marketeers of this industry.  Talk to a mesh manufactuarer, they'll tell you their mesh performs best in the suggested tension range specified in the thread charts.

I'll just leave it at that.

[3Deep]

I,ve got a diamond chase stretcher and use both types of glue the tension drop like a rock in the ocean once I cut it loose and this was on the aluminium frames, even the wood frames.  I think I just suck at stretching static frames, plus prep is a mutha getting those frames ready.
  We went to SGIA show in the Big Easy many years ago and thats where I saw my first newman frames this guy was manually printing an orange dragon on some black tees with no underbase and it look great.  I rememder telling me that the newman guys were jacking some of those frames up to 50n, but really didn't see a need to have that much tension for screen printing.  I think the frame he was printing with was around 30 to 35n and he was using one of those constant force squeegee.  So yes good tension does play its part, but like someone said already, you got to set your shop up for that.

[alan802]

I didn't start this thread to push my thoughts and ideas onto those who don't do as I do, or to try and change anyone's methods, but I do seriously want to know why others do things the way they do and I want to learn something.  I have strong opinions on this subject simply because I've seen so many positive changes in our shop over the last 5 years and using higher tension screens than anything that our statics could provide was one major factor in those improvements.  I wouldn't be so adamant about this if I didn't truly believe that it is as important as it is, but I don't want to sound pushy in the way I'm arguing my points.  I do respect every single person who doesn't use high tension screens and I respect their reasons why they choose not to.  I'll listen to all of the arguments against my opinions but unfortunately there probably isn't anybody or anything that could be said to make me believe that the main benefits of higher tension are not really true.

I think that if I hadn't used statics for so long before we made the change to newmans and shurlocs then maybe I wouldn't have formed such strong opinions on how beneficial those two frame systems are.  Their abilities to eliminate a good number of on-press problems are what I saw first hand.  I am by nature a very, well, overly observant person so when something changes I usually notice it rather quickly.  I may overstate or over emphasize things from time to time but I watched one shop's transformation from a struggling operation that was working overtime and stressful hours to get 650 jobs a year out the door to where we are now.  We are on pace to print 1100 jobs this year with the same basic numbers size wise and with the same number of employees.  That change happened because of many different reasons but when you start getting into depth of the little problems that went away, the increase in setup times and other random benefits we were witnessing I became a true believer in ALL of those systemic and procedural changes that we made, especially the move to higher tension screens.

I appreciate all of you putting your 2 cents in, and I have learned a lot and hope this thread continues even longer so we all can learn more.  I have about 20 static alums that still see action from time to time, especially when we are as busy as we are now.  I'm not one to totally dismiss them or those who use them.  I know great prints come from 15 newton screens but I'll always argue that it could have looked better through high tension screens.

[ZooCity]

Now that I've been born again with thin thread mesh I did consider finding someone with an excellent stretching machine and getting some very high quality frames from them or even shipping good, flat aluminum frames to them and agreeing to pay more for a certain standard.   I think it's worth discussing with a screen maker.  I also think, with enough pulse/stage stretching time dedicated to the process, you can achieve a better static frame.  Of course it would cost more as the screens would take possibly 10x longer to make than standard screens.  The logistical issue I see isn't so much getting the mesh tight and stable- you can do it with enough time and the perfect amount of over-stretching as in taking a 26n rated mesh to just about 30n knowing it will relax in the next 12 hours down to 26n and hopefully, after printing a few cycles retain 22-24n -but more in shipping these rather delicate frames.  I think you'd have to really over pack the things to ensure they aren't doa. 

This is why I never understood the EZ frames- why not just do the same stage tensioning before gluing statics? 

Also, I'll say it again- I love how easy statics are to handle and not having to more than monitor tension with them.  When they're done, they're done.  Send 'em back for new mesh.  Then again, it's another cost of using these frames having to ship them back and forth or stretching and gluing in-house. 

That said, Roller Frames have advantages over almost any other system aside from just high tension.  You can keep them perfectly flat at will, exchange mesh counts in house, they don't require nasty-ass glue to affix the mesh to the frame and, as I'm learning, the ability to have frames with an in-built pre-reg mechanism like the Pin Lock is straight baller.   

Regarding parallel issues with the equipment and high-tension: 

The level of calibration you need is relative to the off-contact you are printing at. 

...and o.c. is directly related to tension.  At insano tensions you can print at extremely low contact which is, in theory, beneficial.  But it's a game of percentages here.  At an off contact of, say, 1/8" a platen that is 1/32" off is not so big a deal.  Drop the o.c. to 1/16" or an inch and now one end of that platen is twice as high/low as the other.  If your press (and your maintenance routine) can't hold the tolerances needed you won't fully reap the benefits. 

Anyways, anyone know of a screen maker who might be up to the challenge of delivering s mesh screens that stabilize at 24n or above?  In my prior experience Pocono Screen always sent us the highest tension screens, perhaps that's a product of the machine and process they use?