Cheaper LED's and a look into LCD for Exposure Split from Saati Screen Toaster Thread

[ScreenFoo]

A very interesting thread and project, still a bit on the pricey side though.

I live in the heart of LED production in China, after reading this thread I decided to do some checking around and I am shocked at how cheap these LED's are....I can get a box of 500 for $125 Each bulb is 5watt, puts out 395nm wavelength. Makes me wonder how companies are getting off charging $5000 for these things.

See also:  EE/ME, light geometry, sensitivity/absorption curves, tariffs, patents, UL/CE certs, marketing, opportunity loss

[Maxie]

LED technology is not so simple.
Not all LEDS are equal, the basic LEDS are very cheap but they are usually not the right wavelength.
I am using the Saai 300w which is much cheaper and gives me good results iwih SBQ emulsion.
I'm using Saati PHU

[Frog]

A very interesting thread and project, still a bit on the pricey side though.

I live in the heart of LED production in China, after reading this thread I decided to do some checking around and I am shocked at how cheap these LED's are....I can get a box of 500 for $125 Each bulb is 5watt, puts out 395nm wavelength. Makes me wonder how companies are getting off charging $5000 for these things.

You should know from your pizza operation the difference between cost of ingredients(parts) and cost of finished product

[jvanick]

A very interesting thread and project, still a bit on the pricey side though.

I live in the heart of LED production in China, after reading this thread I decided to do some checking around and I am shocked at how cheap these LED's are....I can get a box of 500 for $125 Each bulb is 5watt, puts out 395nm wavelength. Makes me wonder how companies are getting off charging $5000 for these things.

think of it this way.. when you're printing a shirt, how much 'raw' material goes into the shirt itself?

15-20% of the total cost?

I think part of the deal with the cheap leds is likely quality control, that is, weeding out the ones that don't put out the same amount of light, the same spectrum, etc.  if it was '1' led chip it might be a different story, but all the successful and long-running units now seem to be settling in on 'arrays' of leds.

Add in R&D, building, stocking, power supply dynamics, warranty provisions, etc, and your $300 in parts unit just got a LOT more expensive.

that being all said... if you can buy 395-405nm leds that cheaply, maybe it's a product opportunity?

[Frog]

In the same vein, is there any doubt that many products that sell for a few dollars actually only cost a few cents? Think Chinese ad specialties.

[Prōdigium]

I think that most, if not all you operate under the assumption that ALL products made in China are "cheap" as in low quality...I can assure you that while that may be true of many products its not the rule. In my circle of foreign friends here I have several that are in the LED business. There are two Brits' that I developed a ERP platform for that manufacture industrial grade lighting. They are a multi-million dollar a year operation here with significant R&D capabilities.

Having developed their ERP network I spent a lot of time inside their facility and I am positive that in a minute they would lend their considerable capabilities to my project, should I wish to undertake such a venture. Issues of QC and control over spectrum are in fact trivial matters to deal with.

Furthermore what I was talking about is the fact that these unites sell for upwards of $5000+ , and the actual costs are in fact very low. LED drivers are NOT expensive, even the highest quality LED bulb purchased in bulk are pennies each. Compared to a standard say a metal-halide system with the electronics, capacitors, expensive bulbs and light integrator there is NO reason why these LED units should be so expensive. LED technology is simply not that complex.

Lets get real, like this thread illustrates and so many thousands before who build their own unites to expose screens with every light source under the sun...and including the sun, which works pretty kick ass btw , its a matter of there is a product for every market segment and clearly $5000 is NOT an entry level unit and based on my own considerable capabilities I am sure that a very high quality unit can be made for about $300 and burn perfect screens for the 90% of the industry that do not need a "Ferrari to get the groceries"   

[jvanick]

I am sure that a very high quality unit can be made for about $300 and burn perfect screens for the 90% of the industry that do not need a "Ferrari to get the groceries"

even if you were to sell such a unit for $1000, you'd make a killing.. go for it...

[zanegun08]

I am sure that a very high quality unit can be made for about $300

I'm more than happy to test your $300 dollar unit, but the fact is that what this is, in itself is pretty specialized, and not for an entry level shop.

The reason being that I'd say majority of CTS users have the I-Image STE or STE II, so they have no need for this, so then you only have users of Exile, Douthit, Kiwo, and then the handful of other players.   The starlight, or Saati / Ryonet, or workhorse, or whatever are more expensive is that they have glass, vacuum draw down, hinges, motors, more complex controllers, ect. 

It'd be great if there was a lesser cost unit on the market, as it is really a simple concept, but it is such a niche product, that if you built a unit for $300 and sold it for even $1200, I think the amount of sales you would get is so small that it would be a losing investment, especially after shipping these over from China to USA.

Like I said though, when you come out with your $300 dollar model, I'm more than happy to test it for you in a production environment, until then, I took what was available now and made it work well for our business model. 

Keep in mind, this light could also replace a 5k and we could shoot screen 6 up as well, it would just need to be at a further distance from the screen, and likely increased time, but we never tested that as we didn't get it for the purpose of replacing our 5k, just in addition to.

[Prōdigium]

even if you were to sell such a unit for $1000, you'd make a killing.. go for it...

Well, the case I was making was not one that I want to make an entry level unit, or go into mfg anything for that matter...my point was that the companies making these LED units are laughing all the way to the bank, and good for them because lets be real, thats why you have a business. But in all fairness the complexity of the LED exposure units is such that the prices should be much less...but its more I guess what the market will give and compared to a metal halide unit, it looks like a comparable deal I guess.

That said, thanks for the words of encouragement....I have already asked my friends at the LED company to do a little investigation base on some simple parameters. In a week or so maybe they will confirm my thoughts as to the real costs to make. This is a company that produces about 4-5 containers of LED lights a month for global export. That do indeed have the capacity to pump them out by the thousands per month and getting certifications is a process they deal with on every product they make for the 20+ countries the export too. Its not something I am taking very seriously, but it never hurts to ask.

[Prōdigium]

I am sure that a very high quality unit can be made for about $300

I'm more than happy to test your $300 dollar unit, but the fact is that what this is, in itself is pretty specialized, and not for an entry level shop.

The reason being that I'd say majority of CTS users have the I-Image STE or STE II, so they have no need for this, so then you only have users of Exile, Douthit, Kiwo, and then the handful of other players.   The starlight, or Saati / Ryonet, or workhorse, or whatever are more expensive is that they have glass, vacuum draw down, hinges, motors, more complex controllers, ect. 

It'd be great if there was a lesser cost unit on the market, as it is really a simple concept, but it is such a niche product, that if you built a unit for $300 and sold it for even $1200, I think the amount of sales you would get is so small that it would be a losing investment, especially after shipping these over from China to USA.

Like I said though, when you come out with your $300 dollar model, I'm more than happy to test it for you in a production environment, until then, I took what was available now and made it work well for our business model. 

Keep in mind, this light could also replace a 5k and we could shoot screen 6 up as well, it would just need to be at a further distance from the screen, and likely increased time, but we never tested that as we didn't get it for the purpose of replacing our 5k, just in addition to.

As mentioned, my case was for the fact that these units should not sell for over $5000 as there really in NOT any advanced or really hard to make technology inside. Of course if I were to make it, there would be beta testers and I will keep it in mind. That said, my friends LED factory actually makes 350 Watt single LED's, that are about 1.5" square...that could feasibility replace a single point traditional unit because the spectrum is nearly 100% the light you need and 350 Watts of LED is actually very freaking bright! Its just a matter of doping the LED crystals to get the spectrum you desire.

But I will respectfully disagree with the idea that this would be a niche market, in fact the entry level market has always been a hugely profitable side of the industry because the costs of entry into this business are very small compared to many. Also note that the market includes much more than just t-shirt printers.

[mk162]

The iphone shouldn't sell for over $600 but it does.  We call it profit. That profit allows companies to pay employees and develop new products that they will in turn sell for a profit and start the cycle all over again.

I had a friend years ago that said it cost less than $3k to build a car that sold for $20k...same thing.

[Frog]

I had a friend years ago that said it cost less than $3k to build a car that sold for $20k...same thing.

But, not too different than a big run of multicolor screenprinted shirts, what does it take to get the first one completed?
We've all had the "sample" or "prototype" discussion with custies. (and automobiles and other machinery don't have the DTG-type alternative available)

[3Deep]

Brad nailed it Profit!!!!, if I can sell a $2.00 t-shirt for $120.00ea with a  funky graphic on it, I'm going to sell sell sell until the next thing comes along.

[kingscreen]

I would think a hinged cover would solve any light "leakage".  Think piano keys cover.

[Prōdigium]

Brad nailed it Profit!!!!, if I can sell a $2.00 t-shirt for $120.00ea with a  funky graphic on it, I'm going to sell sell sell until the next thing comes along.

Like I said, I don't begrudge anyone making profit, that is the entire reason for a business to exist. I am just saying that I find it a bit excessive given the fact the true technology for such a unit is in fact very low.

My friend here already replied to my inquiry and said they can convert an existing unit they make with any LED I want. Its a ready to use plug in box, roughly 40x50 cm and it would have 336 bulbs, rated at 5w each...=1680watts of 395nm output. Sounds a bit overkill to me, but the price for each box is insanely cheap. The only thing left to do would be to put in a timer and of course some sort of either compression lid or vacuum unit to hold it down. Of course this is too small for anything bigger than a 20x24 screen, but for a proof of concept its perfect.

I am going to have him make one to play with, for shits & giggles I want to see if it can be done...maybe I will share the plans and sell DIY kits online?

This is the box, just plug it in, all self contained.