LED Bulbs Already Failing

[alan802]

Here we go.
When we tested the Aquasol with the Chromaline exposure calculator got a 15-20 second exposure. Then we used a Chromaline 10 step Stouffer scale, it gave us a full #6 at 15 seconds and #7 at 20 seconds. We shot the Kiwo (fine 85 LPI) and Chromaline calculator at 15 seconds and again got a solid #6. The instructions show 6-8 being a proper exposure. We held good detail, clear #4 text and good line and halftone detail. Paul can post detail photos tomorrow if needed. But, we think the best detail and durability still comes from dual cure emulsions.

Bottom line is we tested this machine thoroughly. We sent it to the Kiwo lab in Texas and got a very favorable review (actually that is Alan's machine). Pierre tested one and was impressed, as he has posted on this and other Vastex bashing posts before. We had our Chromaline rep come in and do tests with us, all good. We brought screens and a digital microscope to every trade show for the last three years. Charlie Taublieb has many customers using them, all good getting fine detail and great speed. We have sold countless units all over the world with little to no issues.

This thread, and a few others, has been hammering us with two customers unhappy with our LED machine, and one is using it below 50degF. Although we tested it outside at 30 degrees and it worked fine.

We have hundreds of customers using these LED's not posting on this thread, not calling us with exposure problems. As a result of these two unhappy users we made many calls to many customers using our LED's, all very happy with their results. Not that we are not in touch with many on a regular basis, but we called the ones we never hear from. What we didn’t do is ask them to go online and post it, this forum is not for that kind of cheap tactics. We still stand at two not happy, hundreds happy, or at least quiet.

We’ve had some trouble with bulbs going out, I admit it. I think it is the chips or its connections to blame, when this happens we replace them completely free of charge.

Alan, if you’re so unhappy with your machine, move on. Contact River City and let him take it back, we will make you whole. I am sure we offered this over a year ago after your first or second thread, as we offered the pump upgrade over a year ago, but regardless, I will offer it again.  The time spent writing about it could be better spent making money or enjoying life.

In our 56 year history, Vastex has almost never had to take a machine back for an unhappy customer. But in the LED case, I can take a score of hundreds happy, one or two not.

As for my friend in Japan, I wish you purchased through our dealer, they would have assisted you. But you insisted in purchasing directly. We contacted them, who has sold many machines; all their customers are very happy.

One of my competitors has taken this opportunity to chime in on this one, very very classy. I have not responded to most of this or that because I always felt this was a place for people share ideas, not make sales pitches or stick it to the competition. And honestly we didn’t spend our time monitoring this or any other forum. I don’t believe either of these two customers was treated poorly, or ignored, requiring this and the other pages of reading for the world.

Mark Vasilantone

Done, I'll have it back to Kevin as soon as I have something to burn screens with.

[alan802]

Oh, and I have mentioned several times about why I didn't want to send it back, although not directly because it was one private conversation between Mark and I.  It was offered, then the pump replacement was offered and to be perfectly honest, I felt guilty about doing that.  I felt that I made the decision, I bought the machine, I screwed up so where I grew up, you take accountability and move on.  But now that the offer is being made publicly, let's get on with it.

[Frog]

I have to think that once the machine is returned, the folks at Vastex will be very interested in checking it out to see if indeed, there is something wrong.
Myself, the few times that something failed with a product of mine, I was a little miffed that a custy did not point it out immediately so that i could see if rather than operator error, I had some bad ink, vinyl, or an equipment issue that needed to remedy ASAP.
It's part of the process of constant improvement.

[alan802]

I have to think that once the machine is returned, the folks at Vastex will be very interested in checking it out to see if indeed, there is something wrong.
Myself, the few times that something failed with a product of mine, I was a little miffed that a custy did not point it out immediately so that i could see if rather than operator error, I had some bad ink, vinyl, or an equipment issue that needed to remedy ASAP.
It's part of the process of constant improvement.

I don't think that technically there is anything "wrong" with it.  It is what it is, and that "IS" doesn't do what I NEED it to do.  I think there are 3 of us active on the forum that owns one?  Does anyone know for sure how many of us are here?  I've said this before but it gets glossed over and not spoken about, but for a good portion of the work we do the unit is fine, it will burn an average screen for the average shop.  The unit that is sitting right beside me as I type this will not do what we need it to do about 20% of the time and I have nothing else to offer to try and get it to do more.   

 

[Dottonedan]

HA!   In PA, the weather forecast was "Partly cloudy in the Allegheny county. (EVERY DAY). Er was it Partly Sunny. 50.50.

We actually had a nice sunny day here in Allentown, PA. That is the only reason we tried it out. Normally we won't recommend sun exposure because there is really no way to regulate or replicate it. It's tough to come up with any real conclusions from it but we thought we would give it a shot.

Oh, well, I wasn't really mentioning that to be part of the exposure discussion. Just a funny thought. I've grown up in the Pittsburgh and Wva area. Literally, the forecast was always "partly cloudy"  I know that, because (Joe DeNardo) from channel 11 still rings in my ear.

As for this discussion, for me personally, I still do and I've always said early on this forum, that Vastex is and was a great Co. Good people.

I think Allen was not coming on here intended "to bash" but he has been known to come on and give a detailed experience with new products or chemicals and techniques (in great detail). More specifically as it pertains to screens/coating and emulsion. So this is nothing new due to your product specifically, however, I can see that some comments from some members may have not set well but I'm positive nobody meant any harm or offense. Often times, it's better to just get the machine or product ordered back from them and let it die. On the other hand, I would expect (like me), there is a side of you that wants to clear the air and protect the integrity of the machine and service.

You and I both know that one persons complaint or different experience does not make a bad product. It is however, typical of what members/owners of the shops do here. They discuss experience both good and bad. Sometimes, when a business is on the receiving end, it feels harder than it really is on the surface. I'm sure everyone knows there will be some people who do not have the same experience as the majority has. It happens even with all that we do to prevent such.

[alan802]

I decided to try the sun test today but it's fairly late in the day.  I wasn't expecting to get any color on the shirt and got a little, so I'm surprised by that.  Specs: sun exposure, 5 minutes, 4pm, 120/54 with a 20%EOM, 120 microns total thickness.

The sun sample is below the other two from yesterday.  I remember doing the swab test many times with the Richmond when we'd test new emulsions or something else in the process and rarely getting anything to show on the shirt.  I'm also wondering if some of the color is coming from the post exposure dip tank that I soak the screens in.  It's blue tinted and I tried to rinse it really thorough before swiping with the shirt but I can still see a transfer or maybe even some soaking in.  I may try this again tomorrow during high noon without soaking, both using the sun and expo unit so I can make sure there was no contamination. 

[ScreenFoo]

We actually had a nice sunny day here in Allentown, PA. That is the only reason we tried it out. Normally we won't recommend sun exposure because there is really no way to regulate or replicate it. It's tough to come up with any real conclusions from it but we thought we would give it a shot.

All you need is an vac frame and integrator with a photocell--regulation via quantity of UV.

Clouds are the only reason we need an exposure lamp....

[Rockers]

It's hard to keep up here only being able to check the thread every 3-4 hours but I'll try to address the questions.

Ron and a few of the guys did come and demo the Starlight.  He is spot on with his assessment and how I felt.  I didn't want to give up on anything yet, and having seen a few others not having issues and Pierre's testing.  So I went back at it, trying new emulsion and EOMs and we've managed to squeeze a little more detail by adjusting some things, but the swab test really is a telling result, especially when we're dealing with such a thin stencil and long exposure time with an emulsion that is made for LED.

There has always been just enough doubt in my mind that it's us/me and when Rockers and I started communicating about our issues they mirror each other so precisely that I can't fathom it being coincidental. 

We've got some options on the table right now that we're mulling over.  I'll keep on trying to solve our problems and of course I won't give up until I have a better option or better way of doing things.  Gotta go but I'll try to address any other questions or comments I didn't get to.

just wondering if you have fixed the problems you had with the pump?
I noticed on our unit after we had to change the power supply/ transformer that we could not get a good blanket draw down as we had before. It took a good 2 minutes or more for a a fairly OK vacuum. What I did notice now is that this was caused by the glass not being locked down completely even though all screws and clamps that hold it in place were pushing it against the sealing strips and were tight. We repositioned the glass a little bit further to the right locked it all down and boom complete blanket draw down in 20-25 seconds. I`m wondering if this was the cause for your slow vacuum times.

[alan802]

just wondering if you have fixed the problems you had with the pump?
I noticed on our unit after we had to change the power supply/ transformer that we could not get a good blanket draw down as we had before. It took a good 2 minutes or more for a a fairly OK vacuum. What I did notice now is that this was caused by the glass not being locked down completely even though all screws and clamps that hold it in place were pushing it against the sealing strips and were tight. We repositioned the glass a little bit further to the right locked it all down and boom complete blanket draw down in 20-25 seconds. I`m wondering if this was the cause for your slow vacuum times.

That was the 1st thing we tried.  I've had the glass off and cleaned about 6 times and unfortunately it wasn't the issue.  The upgraded pump is a good bit larger than the 2 pumps in the unit now.  I didn't get a chance to put the new pump in so I can't say exactly how much faster it would be versus the original system, but I'd venture to guess it's at least twice as fast.  Our draw down time for 2 screens was about 70 seconds for a full draw but often times we'd start before it reached it's maximum draw down.

[DouglasGrigar]

Wanting to see the news - see new post.

[ABuffington]

FYI, Sun exposure light strength is best between 10 and 2.  Works best in the South.  Northern areas of the US can only use it in the summer, not much UV when it's low on the horizon, or after 2-3 o'clock.  IF you can get a sunburn you can burn a screen.  Exposure times between 10-2,  are predictable in bright sunlight.  Any other time of the day is a guesstimate.

Al