I-Image vs Douthitt CTS

[jvanick]

Brad is right on about the "staining"... no issues during reclaim whatsoever.

[jvanick]

Personally, I think that the ink based units have better potential for high resolution (70+ dpi) imaging than the wax units.

[ttwo0603]

Personally, I think that the ink based units have better potential for high resolution (70+ dpi) imaging than the wax units.

I heard wax holds better detail because the black wax is more of a dense black,   there is more density of the image on the screen. The wax will print a much higher density than the ink. That the wax does not splatter like the ink, therefore, it gives a sharper image for either line work or half-tones. Heard wax could produce 85lpi.

[ttwo0603]

How many screens per day are you going through?

Anywhere between 70-80 screens a day

[alan802]

Another question that might help put the puzzle together:  Do you do a lot of large runs (1,000+ pieces per job)or smaller jobs (144 and under)?

[Dottonedan]

Another question that might help put the puzzle together:  Do you do a lot of large runs (1,000+ pieces per job)or smaller jobs (144 and under)?

I may only be speaking with the assumption of our I-Image being in the running. Perhaps you are counting all CTS options and that may make a difference for some. For an I-Image, 144 or 1000 is of no consern. In fact 50,000 is of no concern. I don't even relate to how the quantity in the run would make a dif.  Even at large numbers, you could post expose and add hardener.

[ttwo0603]

Another question that might help put the puzzle together:  Do you do a lot of large runs (1,000+ pieces per job)or smaller jobs (144 and under)?

20k to 30k runs, 8 to 12 colors, a lot of half tones and simulated process jobs is about 50% of our business, another 35% is 1k to 5k jobs, then the other 15% is 1k and under

[Dottonedan]

Personally, I think that the ink based units have better potential for high resolution (70+ dpi) imaging than the wax units.

I heard wax holds better detail because the black wax is more of a dense black,   there is more density of the image on the screen. The wax will print a much higher density than the ink. That the wax does not splatter like the ink, therefore, it gives a sharper image for either line work or half-tones. Heard wax could produce 85lpi.

The image opacity being darker or more opaque on wax than ink is a myth. They've been tested at all phases of print modes (passes). Our lightest print pass (6 pass) is in the area of 3.5-4.0 d-max. It's only gets darker from there as many users am an attest to.

Wax does splatter do some degree but due to its heavier body, it more or less blobs to a dot. Ink is controlled with various options to fine tune a dot shape or area.  We can hold 55,65,75 and 85lpi

We have customers who run small orders of 5000 units and as much as 200,0000. Some shops do nothing but large orders.

[DannyGruninger]

From the testing that I have done wax is superior when it comes to edge definition as well as the shape of halftone along with density. Considering the two options(m&r & douthitt) here's my opinion.

Speed - m&r is faster by a noticeable amount. If your doing under 150 screens a shift though either machine is easily capable of keeping up but with the ste on the m&r handling the screen only 1 time creates a good amount of less work.

Cost - both units are comparable in terms of upfront cost, m&r will be cheaper to maintain over time

Service - both companies have extremely good service, I would have faith in both companies to service the machine as well as support it

RIP software - this is probably one of my biggest gripes about the I Image and the rip that it uses. The program is based on an old color sep program for the graphics industry, costs very little, and imo is much behind the actual technology of the machines. Even when you preview dots in the rip software you will see the satellites all around the odd shaped dots(i image does not print a true clean round dot) and I believe this is due to the rip. I feel if m&r introduced a much better rip the issues I see with dot/edge quality would possibly go away

Halftones - from my testing the douthitt wax machine produces a much much cleaner truer halftone. The wax has the upper hand on tonal transitions as well as fine halftones compared to the ink

We currently use an i image and it does 99% of what we need it to. I would love to see a better/different rip program that has the ability to produce a cleaner shaped dot like the wax machines but comparing the units that is the only change I would make. We have had little to no issues with our i image and whenever we have m&r has been right there to get us back up and going. If you haven't decided yet I would also look at the new kiwo ijet3 using xerox print head technology. I was pretty impressed with that unit but until I can actually play with one I can't speak much for it. Either way you decide going dts will be one of if not the best decisions your company will make.

[ttwo0603]

From the testing that I have done wax is superior when it comes to edge definition as well as the shape of halftone along with density. Considering the two options(m&r & douthitt) here's my opinion.

Speed - m&r is faster by a noticeable amount. If your doing under 150 screens a shift though either machine is easily capable of keeping up but with the ste on the m&r handling the screen only 1 time creates a good amount of less work.

Cost - both units are comparable in terms of upfront cost, m&r will be cheaper to maintain over time

Service - both companies have extremely good service, I would have faith in both companies to service the machine as well as support it

RIP software - this is probably one of my biggest gripes about the I Image and the rip that it uses. The program is based on an old color sep program for the graphics industry, costs very little, and imo is much behind the actual technology of the machines. Even when you preview dots in the rip software you will see the satellites all around the odd shaped dots(i image does not print a true clean round dot) and I believe this is due to the rip. I feel if m&r introduced a much better rip the issues I see with dot/edge quality would possibly go away

Halftones - from my testing the douthitt wax machine produces a much much cleaner truer halftone. The wax has the upper hand on tonal transitions as well as fine halftones compared to the ink

We currently use an i image and it does 99% of what we need it to. I would love to see a better/different rip program that has the ability to produce a cleaner shaped dot like the wax machines but comparing the units that is the only change I would make. We have had little to no issues with our i image and whenever we have m&r has been right there to get us back up and going. If you haven't decided yet I would also look at the new kiwo ijet3 using xerox print head technology. I was pretty impressed with that unit but until I can actually play with one I can't speak much for it. Either way you decide going dts will be one of if not the best decisions your company will make.

Wow Danny,  I really appreciate the information. Thanks a lot. As a shop we have not made a decision, but it was down to the I-image and Douthitt.  I have been just trying to gather as much information as possible, pros and cons. People that have used either or both. You clearly game me a lot of information. My research continues.

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[TCT]

You have a good size shop, have you ever thought about asking both companies to bring out a unit for you to test and evaluate?

[ttwo0603]

You have a good size shop, have you ever thought about asking both companies to bring out a unit for you to test and evaluate?

No I haven't. It is definitely something I am strongly considering, at least asking

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[BorisB]

BTW, I've seen something that's coming "soon" that's really interesting in terms of direct-imaging/exposure... (think signtronic but FAR less expensive).

Can you share more Information?

[blue moon]

Something most ppl forget. . . Inkjet heads require higher humidity than wax, if I understand correctly. This would mean that your screen room with dehumidifier might not be the best place for an inkjet based unit.

Pierre

[Dottonedan]

Something most ppl forget. . . Inkjet heads require higher humidity than wax, if I understand correctly. This would mean that your screen room with dehumidifier might not be the best place for an inkjet based unit.

Pierre

What level would "higher" be and how relative is that? 30-40% RHL is pretty average. Outside of that, half of the people want their machines in a different room other than their coating or drying room. It's about 50/50


Half the shops keep the machines in the same room as their coating and/or drying room and even near the washout booth often times within 5'-15' from the washout booth ans sometimes 3'-10' from the drying rack. It's kind of all over the place yet these machines run there. Wherever they are, we are able to make adjustments to how it operates to keep it printing as needed.  The other half keep them in an isolated room more often than not, with air conditioning and a humidifier/dehumidifier. I've seen some shops keep them 6' away from their Eco Rinse that puts out a lot of humidity.