A thought about auto options

[alan802]

I have been thinking about the options you can get for a new auto, servo indexer, AC printheads, squeegee, floodbar and screen air locks etc.  I know most shops have a budget and need to weigh which options will benefit them the most and which ones they need versus want.  My main question is in regards to the indexer system and AC printheads.  I look at the used market daily and in the past I've just assumed that the servo indexer is the one option if you had the money to upgrade from an all air machine that you'd have to have, forcing you to go with air driven printheads.  I question that now because as great as a servo indexer is, don't most of you guys think AC printheads are truly more beneficial to the printer and makes a much more substantial impact on the quality of the print?  The servo indexer will never help with the print quality, at least directly.  The servo is great because of speed, smoothness, noise and longevity, but it doesn't affect the print.

The used autos out there typically are configured with air indexer and air heads, or servo indexer with air heads.  I can't say I remember seeing many machines that are air indexer with AC printheads.  If I could only choose one of those major options, servo indexer or AC printheads, I'd go AC printheads.  I wonder why there (well, there doesn't seem to be) aren't many air indexed/AC printhead machines out there?

On the manufacturer's side of this argument, is there a reason why there aren't any/many air indexer/AC printhead presses out there?  Is there an issue in building a press with this configuration or is it purely something that the customer/market has dictated the supply?

Thoughts?  Which configuration would you rather have if you could only have one?:
1. Servo/Air Printheads
2. Air Indexer/AC Printheads

[mk162]

AC heads, hands down. 

[244]

I have been thinking about the options you can get for a new auto, servo indexer, AC printheads, squeegee, floodbar and screen air locks etc.  I know most shops have a budget and need to weigh which options will benefit them the most and which ones they need versus want.  My main question is in regards to the indexer system and AC printheads.  I look at the used market daily and in the past I've just assumed that the servo indexer is the one option if you had the money to upgrade from an all air machine that you'd have to have, forcing you to go with air driven printheads.  I question that now because as great as a servo indexer is, don't most of you guys think AC printheads are truly more beneficial to the printer and makes a much more substantial impact on the quality of the print?  The servo indexer will never help with the print quality, at least directly.  The servo is great because of speed, smoothness, noise and longevity, but it doesn't affect the print.

The used autos out there typically are configured with air indexer and air heads, or servo indexer with air heads.  I can't say I remember seeing many machines that are air indexer with AC printheads.  If I could only choose one of those major options, servo indexer or AC printheads, I'd go AC printheads.  I wonder why there (well, there doesn't seem to be) aren't many air indexed/AC printhead machines out there?

On the manufacturer's side of this argument, is there a reason why there aren't any/many air indexer/AC printhead presses out there?  Is there an issue in building a press with this configuration or is it purely something that the customer/market has dictated the supply?

Thoughts?  Which configuration would you rather have if you could only have one?:
1. Servo/Air Printheads
2. Air Indexer/AC Printheads

Good question Alan. The reason you see servo index and air heads as the norm is the indexer sees a lot of different loads with all the various size pallets. The air indexers work but need more repairs and are difficult for customers to adjust properly. On the head a good printer can print just as good with an air head and not affect the longevity of the press where a bad running indexer can shake a press to death. The difference in an air head versus an electric head also can be expensive. When doing the indexer you are dealing with the cost difference in one system while on the heads you could potentially being dealing with eighteen drive systems. Hope this helps.

[JBLUE]

Rich beat me to it. A good printer can make almost any machine print great. AC heads are great but not a necessity to have a great looking print. My next machine will be AC though

[mk162]

And that is the problem, equipment needs to be as simple to use as possible.  The more variables that are removed, the more consistent the results, and the easier it is to cross train.

[Nation03]

Based on what I've heard, I'd rather have AC heads. I always wondered if it was possible to configure a press with AC heads and an air indexer, but since I've never seen it, I assumed there was something engineering wise that didn't make it possible.

[alan802]

Thanks Rich.  I've always been glad that I've never had to print on an air head, although I know I could do it and get great results. The added time it takes to get the air head dialed in is probably high in the beginning but over time I guess the difference in setups is minimal, or is it?  That could add up over a long period of time, if it always takes a few more minutes per job to get the air head dialed in versus the ease of use of an AC head.

[jsheridan]

Yep Rich nailed it. I grew up with Air index (Mosier cylinder) and it was a PIA to adjust all the time. To get it just right, You had to go under the press and adjust both the index pressure and the stall cushion while the machine was running.  If you didn't adjust it, when you take off the adult boards, put on the sleeve boards and flip the switch.. the carousel would just bonce off the index shock and chatter all the way up to print position. If you had an early gauntlet you'd end up breaking the push rod coupler (or whatever that thing is called that connected the rod to the clevis plate) if you didn't adjust the index correctly. 

They added a separate index regulator somewhere in the early 00's that solved all those problems by allowing you to regulate the incoming pressure straight off the main in-line.

I'll take all AC now given the opportunity as you can't remove the 'bounce' and 'stall' from compressed air.

[jsheridan]

That could add up over a long period of time, if it always takes a few more minutes per job to get the air head dialed in versus the ease of use of an AC head.

We had to adjust for just about every job due to air stall. A 1-4 color job would brezze along, take the machine to it's 12 color limit on white shirts and it would drag ass alllll day.. Back then the air req was like 125 CFM PER machine!  I remember having 6 - 2-stage compressors at one shop, all running @145psi and they still couldn't keep up with the 8 challengers inside.

[Catnhat]

To throw another question out there on auto options;
So last week the Bossman goes to see his parents in Wisconsin.  Drives up to M&R and takes the tour.  (Rich, he wants you to know you have an Amazing facility)
Calls from the plant with this question:

AC printheads or more printheads?

Basically, for a first auto, if you had to choose because of budget, would you choose a smaller press with servo/AC, etc.  or a larger press without?

[GraphicDisorder]

To throw another question out there on auto options;
So last week the Bossman goes to see his parents in Wisconsin.  Drives up to M&R and takes the tour.  (Rich, he wants you to know you have an Amazing facility)
Calls from the plant with this question:

AC printheads or more printheads?

Basically, for a first auto, if you had to choose because of budget, would you choose a smaller press with servo/AC, etc.  or a larger press without?

I have a Sportsman 8/10 from M&R and have only maybe ran into 1 job I couldn't print.  Sure I am small time compared to many, but if it was me buying again I would buy the same press but probably a 10/12.  I would buy AC heads for sure no question.

If you are near TN, come on up and bring some screens/shirts and take it for a test drive.  You will be in love.  Plus it wont have something breaking on it every week like a couple of the newbie presses out there. 

[inkman996]

Servo/AC sure may cost a lot more than all air but you do save a bit of money in compressor and chiller requirements. Plus I am not sure but would converting energy to air cost more than just using the energy directly on the motors?

[tonypep]

Here's a thought about autos that many will argue against but nonetheless.........
Those who might remember Winterland Productions might remember that in their day, for a time, they were the largest textile printers in the world. They specialized primarily in sim process album cover art on darks, a closely guarded secret. To this day their work holds up as some of the best ever.
Their machine of choice?? The Precision Oval. When I asked John Weiss about why not upgrade to some newer presses with more options he replied "Why would I do that? Any one of these guys can turn these suckers on and run like crazy. More options will just slow them down. Besides, half of these guys need to be shown how to use a urinal (many came from third world countries and often spoke no English)

Fast forward a bit to Ocean Atlantic Textiles (OATS). Also a rock and roll printer with two locations and sixteen autos. When Jerry Klaus decided to upgrade from his Multiprinters he issued a PO for Nine fourteen color Challengers. Simple machines all air and each one exactly alike. Once an operator was trained he or she could run any one of the presses without a hiccup. Later we beta tested a predessor to the Tri-loc. It was an inline system that used air, electricity, and lasers to pre-aline the screen. It was an utter failure and was quickly abandoned as it actually took longer to set up the press.....by a lot!

Fast forward yet again to Fortune Fashions. Thirteen Tas autos at one time (they are offshore now). Elexon brings in a machine to beta test. To describe it as a failure would be a gross understatement. Not only was it difficult to set up and understand, it would simply shut down with no way to get it up and running without them having to keep flying in techs and even they were scratching their heads.

So heres the point.....guys like John and Alan, myself and many, many others do embrace and respect new technology. Even when it fails. It's more important, though, to the screenprinter than the press operator, IMO. Owner/Operator shops looking for their first order should absolutely look to purchase the best press you can afford. But in some cases we are faced with a workforce that is poorly educated or have a language barrier or even both. In those cases much of the newer technology is underused, overlooked, and even abused. And often, sacrificing options like number of printheads vs servo indexer can be a mistake.
Sorry to inform everyone that in principle all autos perform the same basic functions. And sometimes simple is better.
And sometimes better is better than best.
Let the argument begin.

[JBLUE]

Winterland does produce some top notch stuff. The best I have seen. They are running some of the old Powel skate graphics. I saw some samples and they were amazing to say the least. They are on a whole other level.

[244]

To throw another question out there on auto options;
So last week the Bossman goes to see his parents in Wisconsin.  Drives up to M&R and takes the tour.  (Rich, he wants you to know you have an Amazing facility)
Calls from the plant with this question:

AC printheads or more printheads?

Basically, for a first auto, if you had to choose because of budget, would you choose a smaller press with servo/AC, etc.  or a larger press without?

I would go with the electric heads and talk to us about carrying the difference for the machine you want until you can pay it before I would short change my printer!