Registration Systems

[Shanarchy]

Pin system and the ROQ PRU

You're using carrier sheets with that? I thought that system didn't use them.

[1964GN]

No, we used carries sheets before we go the ROQ. We now use the PRU

[Shanarchy]

No, we used carries sheets before we go the ROQ. We now use the PRU

Gotcha!

Did you notice a big difference from being able to eliminate the carrier sheets?

[1964GN]

Massive

[Ryan]

It doesn't make sense to me either, but unless I just suck all around and I'm in denial, something isn't right somewhere. It seems like I am the only person who never to gets to press with anything that doesn't need to be microed and even then, I need to move quite a bit. I don't have an answer and I need to make a decision to drop the pin system and go clamps or hope that a rezero of my press again will be the answer. I'm on the fence with both directions because in my head I can see the benefit of both systems, but only having used 1, I only have the experience with pins and if I switch and I'm not in a better situation than I was, then what....I'm stuck with clamps or pay more money to put the pin heads back on. I'm not into paying money to find out that it doesn't help....yeah for me (insert groan here)

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[Shanarchy]

Did you already swap your heads to clamps?

[Ryan]

No. I have to decide if that's the direction I want to go

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[TCT]

Probably more screwing around than necessary, but have them send you 2 clamp heads. It's 4 screws and maybe 10min to swap a head out... See if you like it or not.

[Ryan]

but at that point, am I really going to get a feel for the whole system is going to work for me? yes maybe registering 2 colors, but I'm not sure if that would be enough to give me a definitive answer to the direction I NEED to go

[Shanarchy]

Not sure if this makes any sense at all. Or maybe you already have tried this.

I would zero all heads
Draw a line down the center of all pallets if you haven't already
Take an uncoated screen and using the PRU tape a film to the screen
Then lock the screen in all heads and see if the center lines line up.
Draw a line across the pallets where your top two reg marks would hit and also check that

This should determine if the problem is equipment or human error.

Is it possibly the vacuum of your exposure unit is moving your film a little after you take them on.

Does ROQ have any suggestions?

[alan802]

I don't own an MHM or Sroque, a pin system or a traditional 3 point system at the moment but I have spent hundreds of hours researching, building, modifying and tweaking various 3 point and pin registration systems for our equipment (American Centurian and RPM Revolution), and it is my opinion that when it comes to the Sroque systems that the pallet/3-point reg system would be better for most shops.  Meaning, if I were to buy an Sroque tomorrow I would get the reg pallet and PRU and forego the pin system.  Our system is a modified Triloc that works in almost the same exact way the Sroque 3-point system does and even though ours is quite ugly and ghetto looking, it is VERY accurate and we do 15-20 setups per day and we average 2 test prints per setup to get registered.  I do believe that on paper the pin system is better but in the real world I think there will be fewer problems and less micro work being done if the 3-point system was used. 

I despise carrier sheets and I used many different variations of homemade 3-point systems and also used the Triloc many different ways including the traditional way and our modified version is so much more accurate and faster that I think M&R should move away from the normal Triloc system and completely revamp it to get rid of the carrier sheets and move the FPU off the expo unit and have it's own, stand-alone table to register the film.  I know there are tons of shops using the Triloc as specified and get good/great results but I ran a very detailed comparison of the un-modified and modified Triloc over the course of several months and the modified version outperformed the un-modded Triloc by leaps and bounds.  I understand that M&R might not care as much about the Triloc these days with the new CTS tech coming out and the success it's having, but with their resources and tools they could build a new regi system based on the modified version that many of us have been using for years by the end of the day today and it would be even better than what I use because it would be built specifically and not a hacked version that I've got in place. 

[jsheridan]

I spent the last 3 days talking about registration, systems and devices used.

The end all is a the 3 point stop block

The Jig/frame/device/whatever has the 3 blocks becomes the registration device. In the case of Tri-loc, that is the pallet that goes onto the press. The stability of the device, the accuracy and location of clamping forces must all be in tune with each other and only then do we achieve 99.9% print accuracy.

The 3 point on M&R and ROQ have an open clamping system that allows the frame to be placed into it's registration point, the 3 point blocks, and then clamped.

The pins system of the MHM and PIN-ROQ requires you to load the screen, and then register the screen to a point on the pallet.

[Ryan]

Not sure if this makes any sense at all. Or maybe you already have tried this.

I would zero all heads
Draw a line down the center of all pallets if you haven't already
Take an uncoated screen and using the PRU tape a film to the screen
Then lock the screen in all heads and see if the center lines line up.
Draw a line across the pallets where your top two reg marks would hit and also check that

This should determine if the problem is equipment or human error.

Is it possibly the vacuum of your exposure unit is moving your film a little after you take them on.

Does ROQ have any suggestions?

I've done all that. Even with human error, I would still get right more often then I currently do...Thats the issue. I don't expect to have these miraculous results with the system, either system, but I certainly expect to be way, way closer than what I currently get when I do what is required

[GaryG]

Tri-Loc system getting tuned in here-
I have found some movement in the carrier sheets from time to time. But seems like mostly it is...
The clamps must be as close as possible, precisely aligned the same distance "front to back" on frame
in all heads. This as not to shift differently in all heads

[bimmridder]

Not trying to derail the subject, but don't forget there are other factors involved in a registration system. First, there is still the human error factor. Very few in my shop will care as much as I do about anything/everything. I have a pre press person that makes the screens. He can be off a bit for a thousand reasons (lately, just not caring). The I have a few people that do set ups. Two more humans that may have a little error here or there. Throw in screen tensions that are not uniform, a press that is not calibrated well. Any or all of these will cause registration problems. I could list more, but I think you get my line of thinking. Now, if I make the screens and set the job up, I'm pretty darn sure it will be tight.

Just a few thoughts.