Hate to start a Pissing Contest But.......

[GraphicDisorder]

LOL... I ain't trying to kill no body. :p

I just went BS and catch shirts for him... he was printing a LC and using 2 whites, flashing table up (like everyone else does)...  31dz/hour.

Easy money.

Here's easy money, nearing 800pcs a hour. Casual pace. 
https://www.facebook.com/138282122879494/videos/1040991322608565/

[Gilligan]

LOL... I ain't trying to kill no body. :p

I just went BS and catch shirts for him... he was printing a LC and using 2 whites, flashing table up (like everyone else does)...  31dz/hour.

Easy money.

Here's easy money, nearing 800pcs a hour. Casual pace. 
https://www.facebook.com/138282122879494/videos/1040991322608565/

That's a 3 employee operation.  Also, that doesn't show the loader, I can unload casually all day.

My guy prints solo 95+% of the time.

The thing is, I can always get a full quartz flash for jobs that have fewer colors if I "NEED" the speed and only use the Flashback when I need to maximize colors.

[Wildcard]

I have also been researching the small auto options. How do other brands compare at 10/8 size?
ROQ, MHM, TAS?

[GraphicDisorder]

LOL... I ain't trying to kill no body. :p

I just went BS and catch shirts for him... he was printing a LC and using 2 whites, flashing table up (like everyone else does)...  31dz/hour.

Easy money.

Here's easy money, nearing 800pcs a hour. Casual pace. 
https://www.facebook.com/138282122879494/videos/1040991322608565/

That's a 3 employee operation.  Also, that doesn't show the loader, I can unload casually all day.

My guy prints solo 95+% of the time.

The thing is, I can always get a full quartz flash for jobs that have fewer colors if I "NEED" the speed and only use the Flashback when I need to maximize colors.

Hey captain defensive, you made a comment about easy money, I replied to it.  It's ok to get a little off topic ya know.  99% of threads do.  Yes it's 3 people.  Shelly can load/unload at around 500pcs a hour and let the shirts hit the bucket of we wanted. I'd video that but we never do that anymore, we have too much printing to do to be running with 1 operator. 

So when you are letting shirts hit the bucket are you subtracting the time needed to restack off your dozens per hour? Curious. A double sided or God forbid 3-4 location shirt falling into the bucket needed restacked a few times would be a serious time suck.

Glad you've admitted a real flash is faster with your Quartz comment.  Looks like we are back to my original point.  Flashbacks and revolver are not optimal.  They are fixes for lack of heads or lack of physical space and that's fine. There is a trade off though.  You flashback people acting like someone's kicked your dog lol.

[TCT]

If you are gonna compare the MHM and Roq, you are not comparing machines in the same "class" or price range. You would put those up against a GT3(M&R) or a progressive (Workhorse) machines.

That is taking a huge step over a air machine. Especially if you didn't know if AC heads were with it....

My advice would be to find the maximum $$$$ you can afford. Then start narrowing from there.

[jvanick]

off the flashback discussion for a bit...

the speed of the index (and the type of printing action. heads vs tables), makes a HUGE difference in how comfortable you are at a certain speed.

on the Javelin with the air-indexer the best possible speed of the press was around 450/hr...  that was absolutely maxed out, and after running that fast for a while you'd feel like you were ready to fall over and die.

on the Sportsman, the best possible speed is right around 1000/hr...  at 1000/hr you are flying... but.. I can comfortably load and unload at 400/hr on this press, no problem whatsoever.  With a unloader, I can comfortably run at 720/hr all day.

on a Gauntlett 3 or Challenger 3, I bet we could run even faster yet as the tables are staying in one position, and you're not 'trying to hit a moving target'

I remember a story told a few years back about a group of ladies that worked at a printshop somewhere on the east coast that were comfortably running Precision Ovals at 900/hr SOLO. 

[LuckyFlyinROUSH]

I think again, basically what we are all saying is the choice is up to you. Some of us like different brands for different reasons.

Try to buy something with AC heads, Choppers, and Servo index if is within your reach. When you do grow into it and need 3 people for production you will be glad you have the extra speed.

[Gilligan]

LOL... I ain't trying to kill no body. :p

I just went BS and catch shirts for him... he was printing a LC and using 2 whites, flashing table up (like everyone else does)...  31dz/hour.

Easy money.

Here's easy money, nearing 800pcs a hour. Casual pace. 
https://www.facebook.com/138282122879494/videos/1040991322608565/

That's a 3 employee operation.  Also, that doesn't show the loader, I can unload casually all day.

My guy prints solo 95+% of the time.

The thing is, I can always get a full quartz flash for jobs that have fewer colors if I "NEED" the speed and only use the Flashback when I need to maximize colors.

Hey captain defensive, you made a comment about easy money, I replied to it.  It's ok to get a little off topic ya know.  99% of threads do.  Yes it's 3 people.  Shelly can load/unload at around 500pcs a hour and let the shirts hit the bucket of we wanted. I'd video that but we never do that anymore, we have too much printing to do to be running with 1 operator. 

So when you are letting shirts hit the bucket are you subtracting the time needed to restack off your dozens per hour? Curious. A double sided or God forbid 3-4 location shirt falling into the bucket needed restacked a few times would be a serious time suck.

Glad you've admitted a real flash is faster with your Quartz comment.  Looks like we are back to my original point.  Flashbacks and revolver are not optimal.  They are fixes for lack of heads or lack of physical space and that's fine. There is a trade off though.  You flashback people acting like someone's kicked your dog lol.

Is it not possible for you to participate in a discussion where you aren't trying to prove something you do is the better and only way it should be done?

I thought this was a discussion.  I thought we were discussing ideas.

You are constantly pushing against anything that isn't yours.  Step back sometime man... look at this thread, you have been on every post I make and then every post that even comes close to agreeing with me.  I've posted like 3 times here and you are on every other post... all trying to discount real life situations that people are expressing.

Back to your apples vs rocks comparisons.

He PRINTS solo, we still have someone catching most of the time.  We just don't have an unloader... there is a number between 3 and 1.

As Jason said, there are more things to printing speed than just flashback vs quartz.

I've also NEVER said quartz wasn't faster, I've just always said, it doesn't really slow us down that much and we have hardly ever found ourselves thinking "if we had a regular quartz flash, we could be printing so much faster."  It's not that it isn't faster, it's that we don't NEED to be faster, we are usually doing just find.  Any speed gained, would be negated  by the fact that our 6 color would now be a 4 or slow 5 color if we had a standard flash.

In the end, the flashback is for smaller shops... ones with limited space looking to maximize colors.  My shop would be unbearably tight if we squeezed in an 8 color.  I could put 3 flashbacks in if I wanted and still print all 6 colors, with a DB I'd have to revolve 3 times AND still only be able to print 5 colors (having to be careful not to be too hot when I printed after the flash).

When we move to a new shop our plans are to get a 2nd FB... then when we get our 2nd auto it will be a 12 color and we will get "real" quartz flashes... If we are still on the Sabre platform we will definitely be keeping the flashbacks as options if we were to need them.

Options are awesome!  We have revolver AND flashbacks available on the Sabre platform.

[GraphicDisorder]

Is it not possible for you to participate in a discussion where you aren't trying to prove something you do is the better and only way it should be done?

I would say the same thing to you.

I thought this was a discussion.  I thought we were discussing ideas.

We are. Which is why I pointed out revolver and flash backs are band-aids in attempts to put this poster in the best press for his future. Some got all defensive about suggesting Flash Backs slow down production.

You are constantly pushing against anything that isn't yours.  Step back sometime man... look at this thread, you have been on every post I make and then every post that even comes close to agreeing with me.  I've posted like 3 times here and you are on every other post... all trying to discount real life situations that people are expressing.

I would say the same to you about many threads I create or participate in.

Back to your apples vs rocks comparisons.

He PRINTS solo, we still have someone catching most of the time.  We just don't have an unloader... there is a number between 3 and 1.

As Jason said, there are more things to printing speed than just flashback vs quartz.

Sure is, who said there wasn't? Discuss whatever you like, I brought up a factor I think some new people don't understand kill speed. Speed to SOME (not you clearly) is important, and even when its not important today it can become important later. People should understand what they are doing when buying a press. I still maintain none of the companies do a great job on educating the customer about things like this. You really have to be deep into the sales process and asking the right questions to get details like that. The average buyer probably doesn't. 

I've also NEVER said quartz wasn't faster, I've just always said, it doesn't really slow us down that much and we have hardly ever found ourselves thinking "if we had a regular quartz flash, we could be printing so much faster."  It's not that it isn't faster, it's that we don't NEED to be faster, we are usually doing just find.  Any speed gained, would be negated  by the fact that our 6 color would now be a 4 or slow 5 color if we had a standard flash.

Great it doesn't slow you down, it would slow down many shops here, so it was worth noting as something to look out for. Sounds like your trying to sell your situation pretty hard, you know as the only way to do things. 

In the end, the flashback is for smaller shops... ones with limited space looking to maximize colors.  My shop would be unbearably tight if we squeezed in an 8 color.  I could put 3 flashbacks in if I wanted and still print all 6 colors, with a DB I'd have to revolve 3 times AND still only be able to print 5 colors (having to be careful not to be too hot when I printed after the flash).

There is a place for everything, I even mentioned in this thread that there is nothing wrong with them but there is a trade off and as long as they understand that, then by all means. For example:

Revolving def slows things down, but so do flash backs. Neither are best practices.  Both can help you put a band-aid on not having enough heads/flashes.

Nothing wrong with what you have done, you have space constraints.  By band-aid I meant you've had to make a serious speed sacrifice by using flashbacks to save print heads to accommodate your space.

...

When we move to a new shop our plans are to get a 2nd FB... then when we get our 2nd auto it will be a 12 color and we will get "real" quartz flashes... If we are still on the Sabre platform we will definitely be keeping the flashbacks as options if we were to need them.

Options are awesome!  We have revolver AND flashbacks available on the Sabre platform.

Options are great. I have never said otherwise. Just pointing out the trade off, some shops have no option but to go that way.  I understand the need to defend the way you run your shop. Which if you read my posts in context you have no reason to need to do that, the only issue I take with it is when some pretended it didn't slow things down. Some would prefer the human to be the limitation not the machine so I feel it was important to note for the newbies. If you don't agree that's great.

[GraphicDisorder]

I think again, basically what we are all saying is the choice is up to you. Some of us like different brands for different reasons.

Try to buy something with AC heads, Choppers, and Servo index if is within your reach. When you do grow into it and need 3 people for production you will be glad you have the extra speed.

THIS!!!

[GraphicDisorder]

on a Gauntlett 3 or Challenger 3, I bet we could run even faster yet as the tables are staying in one position, and you're not 'trying to hit a moving target'

I fully agree the table up and down makes a huge difference, but those presses are probably out of his league if he is looking at the air machines. I would just highly suggest still he get into a Servo press. He will thank us all later.

[Gilligan]

Not only did no one ever suggest that Flashbacks aren't a compromise/slow down but I even posted a video demonstrating their exact speed.

I'm not defending or misconstruing anything, I'm showing EXACTLY how it works vs theoretical "It's painfully slow" which clearly isn't the case.

[Gilligan]

That print has a 5-6 second flash... how long is everyone flashing with with your standard quartz flash?  4 seconds?

2 seconds more per shirt... that means on a 300 pcs job you have 600 more seconds, 10 mins.

I agree we should inform potential users of all the details...   They should know that on an average 300pcs job it might cost them 10-15 mins more.

[GraphicDisorder]

Not only did no one ever suggest that Flashbacks aren't a compromise/slow down but I even posted a video demonstrating their exact speed.

I'm not defending or misconstruing anything, I'm showing EXACTLY how it works vs theoretical "It's painfully slow" which clearly isn't the case.

Actually it was suggested that they were not band-aids on the first page which IMO is misleading. It suggests there are no sacrifices to run them. Which would be false.

Note, some find 30ish dz a hour painfully slow.  Some find 70dz a hour painfully slow. Some guy out there would kill to have 1 dz a hour through his kitchen stove.

[GraphicDisorder]

That print has a 5-6 second flash... how long is everyone flashing with with your standard quartz flash?  4 seconds?

2 seconds more per shirt... that means on a 300 pcs job you have 600 more seconds, 10 mins.

I agree we should inform potential users of all the details...   They should know that on an average 300pcs job it might cost them 10-15 mins more.

Once we warmed up I would say most jobs are flashing in around 2 seconds at least that is how it was when Shelly and I used to do the printing.