Hate to start a Pissing Contest But.......

[aauusa]

let me ask the non flashback autos guys.  if you had a 36 piece job which is a 1 color print (white ink) on a  black tee. 

a) burn 2 screens white in both with flash station in middle of them?
b) burn 1 screen and print in revolver mode

me
c) 1 screen head in station 1 which has the flashback and i would print flash print and go.

which of the 3 methods is faster and more cost effective.   the way i see it (a) has double screens double squeegees and flood bars.  (b) the shirt makes 2 trips around. (c) 1 trip, 1 screen and just a 4 second flash delay.

(a) cost more cause double materials
(b) i think time would be longer than (c)
(c) same cost as (b) and a little more time than (a)

don't forget burn time, tape, set up, line up  and clean/reclaim time is all figured into the job costs as well.

[ol man]

whether you use a flashback , or send it around twice with a standard flash  - your likely looking at the same amount of time.
small jobs(36 and under) 1 screen

[screenprintguy]

let me ask the non flashback autos guys.  if you had a 36 piece job which is a 1 color print (white ink) on a  black tee. 

a) burn 2 screens white in both with flash station in middle of them?
b) burn 1 screen and print in revolver mode

me
c) 1 screen head in station 1 which has the flashback and i would print flash print and go.

which of the 3 methods is faster and more cost effective.   the way i see it (a) has double screens double squeegees and flood bars.  (b) the shirt makes 2 trips around. (c) 1 trip, 1 screen and just a 4 second flash delay.

(a) cost more cause double materials
(b) i think time would be longer than (c)
(c) same cost as (b) and a little more time than (a)

don't forget burn time, tape, set up, line up  and clean/reclaim time is all figured into the job costs as well.

We do lots and lots of these small runs. always double the screen if it's just say, white on a black shirt that you want to pfp. At the end of the day, say 15 orders with similar ideas, or a highlight white in a multi color job. the few extra screens at the end of the day, at say $1 per screen in emulsion cost if even that is worth the time when you are producing that many orders a day. Maybe if it's only a few jobs a day, or your week isn't filled up enough that you are doing a couple jobs a day like that, I can see only 1 screen, I do it from time to time, but, but, but, time is worth more money than shooting a highlight screen any day of the week. Depends on your system too, how you coat, what type of emulsion you use, whether you are cts, film, vellum, ect. I would still burn two whites rather than revolve. The only times we realy, had had had to run revolver is when the color counts were maxing out our press and we needed the extra flashing to have the desired finish that the customer would want, say on 8 colors. But now with a 14 color press, revolver is pretty much a thing of the past , but even still, on the GT3 running revolver you can still have a production speed of 400 per hour. Did one last week that was time sensitive and I didn't have the clock to change the customer's seps so we just ran the 2nd revolution and the production speed was 424. Those Red Chili D flashes, once boards are hot are flashing like 1.5 seconds, pretty nice, they measure the temp so if we forget to change the quartz time on the controller they auto regulate themselves. I got the hint long time ago from Greg Kitson that when your plate starts to fill up, even small jobs, the second screen on a white pfp is a small small sacrifice for the speed of the clock.

[GraphicDisorder]

let me ask the non flashback autos guys.  if you had a 36 piece job which is a 1 color print (white ink) on a  black tee. 

a) burn 2 screens white in both with flash station in middle of them?
b) burn 1 screen and print in revolver mode

me
c) 1 screen head in station 1 which has the flashback and i would print flash print and go.

which of the 3 methods is faster and more cost effective.   the way i see it (a) has double screens double squeegees and flood bars.  (b) the shirt makes 2 trips around. (c) 1 trip, 1 screen and just a 4 second flash delay.

(a) cost more cause double materials
(b) i think time would be longer than (c)
(c) same cost as (b) and a little more time than (a)

don't forget burn time, tape, set up, line up  and clean/reclaim time is all figured into the job costs as well.

Depends on the situation really. We have done it both ways on super small jobs like that.  Interestingly many jobs we have small like that will be like 24pcs white ink, 24 more black, etc.  So the answer changes a bit in those cases. 

[DannyGruninger]

let me ask the non flashback autos guys.  if you had a 36 piece job which is a 1 color print (white ink) on a  black tee. 

a) burn 2 screens white in both with flash station in middle of them?
b) burn 1 screen and print in revolver mode

me
c) 1 screen head in station 1 which has the flashback and i would print flash print and go.

which of the 3 methods is faster and more cost effective.   the way i see it (a) has double screens double squeegees and flood bars.  (b) the shirt makes 2 trips around. (c) 1 trip, 1 screen and just a 4 second flash delay.

(a) cost more cause double materials
(b) i think time would be longer than (c)
(c) same cost as (b) and a little more time than (a)

don't forget burn time, tape, set up, line up  and clean/reclaim time is all figured into the job costs as well.

My first auto was a workhorse tuff w/ 2 flashbacks...... For a long time I was convinced that the tuff could do a 1 color pfpf faster then revolve mode on another machine until I put an m&r right next to my tuff. Once I did that I realized that revolve mode is MUCH faster then flashback flashes. Sold my tuff/flashbacks as the flashbacks caused us more slowdowns(heating the screen/drying the ink) then it was worth for me.

But your scenario above, 36 pcs we would print 1 screen and do 2 revolutions on the machine

[aauusa]

i see your point screenprintguy with the second screen. yes it is faster and yes it would be nice but the other factors are

1 guy that burns, 1 guy preps screens, 1 guy prints, 1 guy catches, 1 guy folds and box, 1 guy cleans/reclaim screen, 1 guy coating screens(not cts)

and that 1 guy is only 1 person.  to me doing the 1 screen with flashback or revolver would beat the 2 screen system anytime given the real word(my shop) parameters. given the extra time to burn/prep/lineup/clean/reclaim that second screen.

maybe wrong most of the time i am....

i also one of those guys which love the v squeegee  which most seam to dislike.

[aauusa]

let me ask the non flashback autos guys.  if you had a 36 piece job which is a 1 color print (white ink) on a  black tee. 

a) burn 2 screens white in both with flash station in middle of them?
b) burn 1 screen and print in revolver mode

me
c) 1 screen head in station 1 which has the flashback and i would print flash print and go.

which of the 3 methods is faster and more cost effective.   the way i see it (a) has double screens double squeegees and flood bars.  (b) the shirt makes 2 trips around. (c) 1 trip, 1 screen and just a 4 second flash delay.

(a) cost more cause double materials
(b) i think time would be longer than (c)
(c) same cost as (b) and a little more time than (a)

don't forget burn time, tape, set up, line up  and clean/reclaim time is all figured into the job costs as well.

My first auto was a workhorse tuff w/ 2 flashbacks...... For a long time I was convinced that the tuff could do a 1 color pfpf faster then revolve mode on another machine until I put an m&r right next to my tuff. Once I did that I realized that revolve mode is MUCH faster then flashback flashes. Sold my tuff/flashbacks as the flashbacks caused us more slowdowns(heating the screen/drying the ink) then it was worth for me.

But your scenario above, 36 pcs we would print 1 screen and do 2 revolutions on the machine

i have never had issues with the flashback and screen heating and drying the ink. well i say never in the first year yes but once i was proficient with it does not happen.  have heard a number of people though with that same complaint though so it no unusual but it not the norm either.

[kingscreen]

We have found that running Orbital (Workhorse's Revolver) is on average 2-3/dz/hr faster than running the Flashback.  But it depends on the print really.
I really like the Flashback.  But I also understand it's not for everyone, or for every job.

[GraphicDisorder]

We have found that running Orbital (Workhorse's Revolver) is on average 2-3/dz/hr faster than running the Flashback.  But it depends on the print really.
I really like the Flashback.  But I also understand it's not for everyone, or for every job.

That's what most running the flash backs have said is that often the flash back was slower than going around twice. We barely ever run Revolver anymore, but the CH3D indexs so fast that going around 2 times is not 2x as long to do the job I can tell you that. 

[ZooCity]

I haven't ran a diamondback or cutlass but we have a Sportsman and while it's listed as a mid level press, I would consider it an entry level machine.  I can't imagine working with less for doing anything but very basic work with low registration requirements.  Just some food for thought that what others are satisfied with at "entry level" may not fit your expectations.   Not a knock on those machines, they are what they are- affordable!

[Gilligan]

The flash back isn't so bad at all.

We don't run PFPF unless we are printing white in the design and it's a short run.  If it's larger we will run a white screen.

What if you are doing MAX colors with white in the design?  You can't revolve that, you lost your head to the flash.  With a flash back you didn't lose that head.  You can technically run multiple flashes and still keep it a true 6 color machine.  For some shops, you have no other choice.  We have a 19'x24' production area... you wouldn't want to try to squeeze an 8 color in there... so now you have a TRUE 6 color and you could run 2 flashes if you wanted.

Also you can run the FB in table up mode and put it in head 2... this allows you to run PFP just like everyone else... only thing different is the shuttling of the flash.

We ain't trying to kill no body... but we have run a LC print at 500/hour and we were new and were PFP all on head 1 vs doing it right with 2 white screens and flashing table up.  That was FULL crew, load/unload/catch.  We typically run with printer and catcher only... so we run just fine with the flashback.

Here is a video of my guy doing 19dz/hour on a pretty average print (we RARELY ever have someone asking for 15x17" prints... remember a while back we got a complaint that we printed TOO big!).

This is PFP:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NsUISOkMy4

[jvanick]

Here is a video of my guy doing 19dz/hour on a pretty average print (we RARELY ever have someone asking for 15x17" prints... remember a while back we got a complaint that we printed TOO big!).

This is PFP:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NsUISOkMy4

He's got WAY too much time to stand around...

[Gilligan]

LOL... I ain't trying to kill no body. :p

I just went BS and catch shirts for him... he was printing a LC and using 2 whites, flashing table up (like everyone else does)...  31dz/hour.

Easy money.

[LuckyFlyinROUSH]

I hate to say it, but on the small orders the workhorse freedom with flash back was usually faster than our sportsman using 1 white and sending around twice.

The delay of the flash back and reprinting the white gave the operator tons of time to unload, then load a new shirt by themselves.

That being said...the flashbacks were wayyy to damn close to the shirts, often nabbing collars or burning things that happend to be up slightly and not perfectly flat on the pallet.. We hated the V squeegees after having choppers...

[TCT]

What are the price comparisons on the two units(Diamondback and Cutlass)? The user interface on the Workhorse blows the Diamondback out of the water. But if you think down the line, I'm gonna guess the Diamondback will have better resale value.

Like everyone has said, AC heads make a big difference. Worth it in my book, even more if you are in a region that gets cold.