Registering M&R Series I and II Style Presses In-House

[ZooCity]

I've decided to register our auto presses in-house.  We have a 2013 Sportsman and a 1992 Gauntlet. 

Completely understand if some don't want to share tech advice on this process publicly, it's a specific skill that many are paid well for, but please post whatever you feel comfortable with.  Talking about these two machines really spans a lot of presses that are out in the field so any information should be valuable to those reading, even if it's just to understand the fundamentals of machine registration.  Also, I should put in a disclaimer that regging your own auto presses is not for everyone, it certainly wasn't something I was comfortable with for a long time and I recommend using a good tech if you have any doubt whatsoever about your ability to do it right.


To get started, I see two key parts to the process: correct procedure and tooling.

The core to the procedure, as I see it, is to ensure that you are only measuring or moving one thing at a time.  Bearings and forks must be in acceptable condition in terms of wear and function.  Bolts holding the bearings and forks in place must be lubricated and tightened correctly with threads in good shape. The main shaft must be the same.  The registration device must be absolutely rigid and remain so throughout the process. You must apply consistent tension on whatever method your device uses to indicate bearing location.  The locator must strike the bearings in the exact same way, in the correct spot on the bearing. 

From there, I have heard of and seen a couple different sequences to the procedure.  Wondering which one is "correct". 

For tooling, I see M&R has this https://store.mrprint.com/mr_pls/oos_items_pkg.item_details?p_item_no_c=8089000-SERVICE&p_search_mode_c=ITEMS&p_search_string_c=registration&p_page_id_i=1&p_page_size_i=50&p_sort_mode_c=ITEM%3ADESCRIPTION&p_page_view_c=LIST and it appears it would mount to both a Z bar and the series II registration arm.

Also this one from GPI http://www.gpiparts.com/prod386.htm

Is this the recommended device?  I assume you add your own spring and dial indicator. 

How accurate should these styles of machines register?  1/1000th of an inch?  And then what accuracy and level of precision does your dial indicator need to be to get there?  There is such a wide range in the quality of dial indicators in terms of precision.  I suppose a dial indicator of mid-grade precision with an accuracy that goes a decimal past your machine registration target would suffice?  Digital seems like a must. 

Thanks in advance, this is bound to be an interesting thread!

[bimmridder]

I

[ebscreen]

It's easy once you get down to it. You'll go around about a million times getting it right on your first go, after
that you can probably pull it off in three rotations or less.

I've used both analog cheapo indicators and ridiculously sensitive digital ones. Being able to easily read
the measurement is more important than anything else. With a one thou analog indicator you can visually
see where you are in reference to the measurement, (IE right or left) but with a digital it's way easier to glance
at a lcd and see what's up. If you go digital, go a half thou at least. DO NOT DROP!

The main idea is to get your indicator into position, make sure your measurement is accurate, then be able to move
it out of position so that the machine can index for the next reading. Can be as simple as a couple pieces of scrap
metal and a bearing, or much more complicated than that. You just have to know that your readings are accurate
and you can trust them, IE there is no possibility that anything is flexing or shifting at all. Zero play. Set it up
and take readings on all arms, then go around again and make sure the readings match. Then you can start adjusting.

Lastly, be absolutely certain that it is indeed your registration that needs adjusting. I'm sure you are if
you are considering it, but once you loosen that first bolt there's no going back until you're done.

[ZooCity]

Lastly, be absolutely certain that it is indeed your registration that needs adjusting. I'm sure you are if
you are considering it, but once you loosen that first bolt there's no going back until you're done.

Yep, I don't want to take a nose dive on this for sure.  Not absolutely certain that reg is our issue but actually hoping that's our problem as the solution is simple.   In any case, getting a tech out here is just plain not worth the money for us unless it's a factory install of something new.

Am going to start by just checking reg, adjusting nothing, going around and around like you said to assure myself the setup is stable and assembling a log of how far off everything is.   

[ffokazak]

I registered our old challenger and left the dial indicator setup for what was supposed to be for a few weeks to make sure the readings stayed true. We were within 1/1000th

I ended up leaving the dial indicator setup in the same spot {Between heads 7-8 I think so it was out of the way)

I bought that dial indicator for 30$-ish from harbour freight, or princess auto and it stayed in the same spot for 4 years.

When I took down the press, I was sure the dial would be toast. It probably cycled in and out 3/4 of a million times.  Well it worked perfectly fine! Hows that for offshore craftsmanship!

Anyways good luck, it isn't very hard when you get the hang of it. On an old challenger I adjusted the reg maybe 3 times in four years, the worst arms being 5/1000ths out.

Good luck!

[ebscreen]

Lastly, be absolutely certain that it is indeed your registration that needs adjusting. I'm sure you are if
you are considering it, but once you loosen that first bolt there's no going back until you're done.

Yep, I don't want to take a nose dive on this for sure.  Not absolutely certain that reg is our issue but actually hoping that's our problem as the solution is simple.   In any case, getting a tech out here is just plain not worth the money for us unless it's a factory install of something new.

Am going to start by just checking reg, adjusting nothing, going around and around like you said to assure myself the setup is stable and assembling a log of how far off everything is.

Nothing wrong with being self-reliant!

Not to scare you, but have you checked for play in the center shaft?

Mis-registering machines will usually show up as a few prints in a row in register and then the next few drifting further
out, then drifting back into register. It's pretty apparent and consistent. Inconsistent issues are, like you said, more of a pain
because you can't reproduce it constantly, and typically falls to something being loose, parallel way out, or worst case, center shaft.

[jvanick]

I learned how to do it from Francisco at the M&R maintenance class... it's more about being meticulous than anything else...  We did a 6 color Diamondback (one that was on the production line, lol) in about an hour and a half or so.

not a terribly hard/difficult job if you know what you're doing.

you line up the registration tool to hit the bearings at the center of the right side of the bearing.

table up the press on each bearing and get a reading...

add all of the measurements up, divide by the number of arms to get an average.

adjust each of the bearings left and right not touching the first one to get as close as possible to the average.

take your measurements again. and repeat the process.

after a few times around (if the press is way out) you should be damn close to right on.

I don't remember what the official tollerance is supposed to be, but i'd be pretty sure that you should at least be able to get within a  thousandth or 2 of an inch.

[244]

If all is proper the machine should easily hold+-.001 between the total arms.

[ZooCity]

If it's the center shaft I'll be shocked...and extremely bummed out, the machine is too new.  But while we're on it, how can you know if you have, um, "shaft issues"?  Just eliminate all other possibilities?  I have heard to put weight on a platen arm and rock a little to feel for play.  Our 1992 press will eventually go due to this so it would be good to know what it looks like. 

Thanks for the figure Rich, 0.001 will be the target.  Do you have a dial indicator recommendation?

[244]

If it's the center shaft I'll be shocked...and extremely bummed out, the machine is too new.  But while we're on it, how can you know if you have, um, "shaft issues"?  Just eliminate all other possibilities?  I have heard to put weight on a platen arm and rock a little to feel for play.  Our 1992 press will eventually go due to this so it would be good to know what it looks like. 

Thanks for the figure Rich, 0.001 will be the target.  Do you have a dial indicator recommendation?

most new dial indicators will repeat and work fine but if it was me it would be a Starrett

[ZooCity]

Will check into one.  Was looking at a mitutoyo but it looks like it might be overkill.

[jvanick]

If it's the center shaft I'll be shocked...and extremely bummed out, the machine is too new.  But while we're on it, how can you know if you have, um, "shaft issues"?  Just eliminate all other possibilities?  I have heard to put weight on a platen arm and rock a little to feel for play.  Our 1992 press will eventually go due to this so it would be good to know what it looks like. 

you should never have shaft issues if you keep the center bearings greased correctly.  (at least weekly)

the "traditional" way to check for shaft wear is to grab a print arm and see if the table rocks up and down.

[ZooCity]

Cool, will try that.  We religiously follow pm schedules so I tend to rule out things like that.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

[ebscreen]

Wouldn't being far out of plumb wear you out unevenly as well?

I've got a Mitutoyo and a Starett here. Like them both. MSC usually has good deals.

[244]

Wouldn't being far out of plumb wear you out unevenly as well?

I've got a Mitutoyo and a Starett here. Like them both. MSC usually has good deals.

Being out of plumb should not cause any significant wear issues.