Discharge colors vs Discharge U/B with WB colors (warning -- Newbie)

[redwoodtees]

I have a two-part question.. perhaps I should have made two posts. But anyway,

Part 1: I'm confused about the advantages/disadvantages of using pigments in a discharge base versus using a discharge underbase with normal WB ink. I am using Virus inks, if that matters. In the Virus system, the same pigments are used to color both the discharge base and the hydra clear base. I suppose one disadvantage of using DC underbase is that I am putting down more ink, and increasing the (pre-wash) hand. So is that the main reason for using pigmented discharge -- to get the softest possible feel? Or am I missing something fundamental?


Part 2: Right now, I am working on printing an image that was originally an ink/color pencil sketch on off-white paper. It's going on darker shirts, all of which discharge pretty well. My thought was to use a discharge underbase to create the "paper" and then use normal WB colors on top of that (currently I am planning three screens, orange, green and black). Here's a detail of the image.. Is that how you would print it?



Thanks

Chris

[Colin]

JamieM would know the answers to this inside and out.

I unfortunately do not know the virus system that well.

However, I look at your design and see 2 ways to print it.  A discharge base tinted to the paper color with your colors printed on top in plastisol or an HSA type of ink.  Easy Peasy.  This may very well work with the Virus inks, I just do not know.

I would not use a standard/regular waterbase ink for over printing a discharge base.

OR!

You can do a 3 color discharge print with Cream/Green/Orange and standard WB Black.  This will give you an even softer hand when washed.

A word of caution to all of us talking about waterbase ink systems.  Please make sure to denote a HSA type product versus a historical waterbase ink - I.e. low solids waterbase.  It will make communication a lot easier

I like the iguana BTW!

My 2 Cents

[redwoodtees]

Colin,

Thanks for the reply. Glad you like the FISH, haha!

Where can I read about the different types of waterbase inks? I have heard the term HSA, but I don't know if that term applies to what I am using or not.

[Colin]

HSA stands for High Solids Acrylic.  Acrylic being the main resin in use.  Virus is a polyurethane HSA however.  The solids portion of these inks are completely different than those used in traditional waterbase inks.

So basically, standard waterbase inks are 70%+- water - or so.

HSA inks are 50% water or less depending.  The finished ink tends to stay on top of the shirt, more like traditional plastisol.

Ahhhh, it's a fish.... I see that now

[redwoodtees]

Thanks again for the info.

The distributor I purchase from had a training class earlier this year specifically for the Virus ink system -- really wish I had made time in my schedule to attend that. How do you know Virus is a polyurethane HSA? I've read their amusingly-translated tech sheets, and I have never seen a reference to HSA or polyurethane.

I'm going to try printing with 3 DC colors + WB black.

[Colin]

Redwood:

If you look at the post right above this one, where Tony posts a pic of some R&D he was working on, you will see that it is completely possibly to print standard WB inks on top of a discharge base.

Looks like I was wrong about that

[redwoodtees]

Here's a test print. I had a better match on the green but kept messing with it and I think I ended up a little too dark. Any suggestions on how to improve this print?
This is 4 screens: (1) 50% discharge / 50% discharge white, (2) discharge orange, (3) discharge green, (4) black.

The finished print looks good, but feels a little dead. Would adding a highlight white help this print? I was contemplating knocking back the levels on the black screen too. Or perhaps lighten the black ink.

Thoughts?

Chris

[tonypep]

Looks 90% to me if you want to "sketch it up" go to a WB gray or base the black back a bunch. Good work

[mimosatexas]

highlight white or adjusting curves in your seps on the green and orange would help with the range.  Also, I know for plastisol, doing a 50/50 clear/white base and printing on top can cause issues when washing, so you might want to test that.  Most people run something closer to 80/20 instead.

I actually like your print more than the lighter original.  The original looks washed out.

[ZooCity]

Well you don't want to be dead fishing it I suppose.  I think it looks great, nice work.

If you wanted it sketchier I would simply pull back the top colors in the seps, looks like you have all the brightness needed from the UB.

All DC is perfectly fine to "stack up" over a base, it should blend and easily achieve it's equivalent of intercoat adhesion.  But it's always wise to wash test a new process. 

HSA or Plasti over DCUB is never over 80/20 here as the white pig in DC ink can and will block a coating type ink's ability to mechanically adhere to the fibers.  Combine that with a DC UB allowing for a much thinner top film of ink and you have a potential bummer. 

In either instance, you want to drive the top inks into the base to some degree.

[Colin]

Is that fish design for retail or a customer?

[Rob Coleman]

Colin,

Thanks for the reply. Glad you like the FISH, haha!

Where can I read about the different types of waterbase inks? I have heard the term HSA, but I don't know if that term applies to what I am using or not.

Redwoodtees - here is a link (could not upload the file) to a waterbase presentation.  It is a bit dated, but still relevant.  This was a webinar that we at SourceOne put on with Magnacolours for customers in 2013.  It is a topical view into the Magna waterbase products, but there is some information that describes in general terms the differences between waterbase "types".  The first few pages are SourceOne and Magna bios, then the waterbase description summary and more detail on the Magna line.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/rstasbrizonkmn8/Magna%20101%20Webinar%202%2020%202013%20V2.pdf?dl=0

I realize you are using the Virus, and this is not meant as a sales speech; rather felt the overview information could help in your quest for knowledge.   

[redwoodtees]

Is that fish design for retail or a customer?

Retail. My brother is the artist.. we are collaborating on a few shirts; this is the first one.

[redwoodtees]

Redwoodtees - here is a link

That was helpful.. Thanks!

[noortrd]

On virus inks disharge agent is liquid or powder?