300S versus 305 for simulated process?

[andyandtobie]

Hi everyone, sorry I dropped off the map for a long time, but that's what happens when you get busy, I guess.  Been selling artwork and running mostly all one-color and two-color simple jobs that people have asked for, but it's time to get back to improving our simulated process stuff.  So, last time I posted, you guys clued me in that I need to switch to 305 mesh for my colors, on top of a 225S base.  My first assumption would be to buy 300S since we've liked using 150S and 225S, but now I'm second-guessing which screens to buy (we're using Murakami statics).  If I buy 300S, will that defeat the purpose of switching from 225S, since a 300S will pass more ink than a regular 305?  Will it pass too much, and maybe I should stick with the regular 305?  I apologize if there's a thread for this somewhere already, I looked but didn't see anything.  Thanks again to all you guys.  I find 99% of my answers here before I even know what questions to ask. 

Just as a refresher, here's where we were last time:
http://www.theshirtboard.com/index.php/topic,13613.0.html

This was printed with QCM 159 white on a 150S for the base, with 225S for the QMX colors, on a Printa 770 6/4 manual.  Yes, a Printa, which we found on Craigslist a few blocks from here.  I know people say that press is nothing but trouble, but it's what we got, y'know?  It works until we can get an automatic.  Going to try Triangle Phoenix White next time, planning on switching to a 70/90/70 squeegee for the base, as well.

The one and two color jobs we've done since then have been pretty uninteresting, with nothing much to report. 

[mimosatexas]

As a manual printer I much prefer the 280 standard mesh over the 305 or the 300S.  They are all similar, but I find with the 305 and 300S I occasionally can't get quite enough pressure on certain colors manually AND sometimes you end up having to hard flood which will pretty much ruin your high and low tones due to dot gain.  280 mesh prints like butter for me with soft flood and medium pressure push stroke.  nice and clean...

300S also feels super fragile, though I have popped more 150S than anything for whatever reason...

[andyandtobie]

Oh yeah, I completely forgot that you'd mentioned your preference for 280 once before.  Since we're talking about printing simulated process on a manual rather than an automatic, I think I'd better wake up and pay attention.  Thanks for the reminder, Mimosa!  I imagine that 280 would still give us a lot better control over dot gain than the 225S, huh?  Awesome tip.

[3Deep]

When we print withe our manual press we use 230's yellow mesh, I've tried the 280,300,and 305 and like Mimosa find that it's hard to get a good ink flow or cover without a butt load of pressure.  Now on the other hand with the 230 mesh I like to print with I try not to flood the screen at all if I've got really fine detail lines and halftones, just one nice hard print stroke and lift the ink up with the squeegee and bring back to the back...makes for a nice clean print, flooding sometimes cause unwanted dot gains and etc.

darryl

[mimosatexas]

I found that 225S puts down WAY to much ink usually and 230 does the same with any runnier inks (like black).  280 gives me the best control and best coverage based on my tests.  I'm also using statics and a push stroke, so if you are using rollers with higher tension and a pull stroke, you may have different results.

[Colin]

Ahhhhh.... the Printa Press.... Flash backs to working with them while I was at QCM.

Are you using the exposure unit that came with the press?  The same locked screens?

[andyandtobie]

Darryl, thanks for the tip about lifting the ink and skipping the flood, I never would've thought of that.  Since we started with waterbase, flooding feels like it's just something you've gotta do.  But I can see that there's no risk of pushing ink though on the flood if you don't flood in the first place.  I'll try that for sure!  I've been running the 225S for the colors and it's just too much ink.  We get bad dot gain when we lay the following color down and squish the dots out when we print the next color.  Getting too much pick-up on the back of the screen, as well.  Perhaps you're having better luck with the 230 with a different ink?  I wonder if the heat has an effect, too.  The whole works is crammed into a 10' x 12' room, and with the dryer and flash in there, everything gets hot and runny pretty quick.

[andyandtobie]

Mimosa, you've got me pretty much sold on the 280.  Your methods sound so close to ours that I feel like I should be copying your techniques to get things rolling.  We're also using a push stroke and statics on our manual, too.  So it seems like if you're also doing simulated process with your setup, we should be able to follow your lead as a formula for success.  But, I realized that I have a new problem.  Where are you getting the screens?  I've been buying mine from River City Graphic Supply, but I don't see anything there for 280 mesh when I look at their statics.  I also buy stuff from Westar Solutions, but I don't see anything there, either.  We're running 20" x 24" frames.  Thanks, man!

[andyandtobie]

Colin, thanks for chiming in.  Having recently bought a QMX mixing system, I've read a lot of your posts in search of wisdom.  It's been a big help!  We are indeed using the exposure unit that came with the press.  But, you won't be surprised to hear that it's the first thing on my list to upgrade.  I've been developing the screens by adjusting the time individually based on the average size of the dots on each color.  Obviously not an efficient way to do things.  I'm thinking I'll build a box with a 1000 watt metal halide grow light in the bottom, as a step up from the florescent tubes until we can afford a real exposure unit.  By locked screens, are you talking about the plastic registration tabs that are screwed on them?  We got a pile of beat-up frames when we bought the press, so I unscrewed all the plastic registration tabs off of them, put them in a bucket, recycled the frames, and bought statics from River City.  I just mark holes on the new frames, drill holes, and screw Printa's tabs onto the new frames with self-tapping screws.  Works pretty good.  I added a chunk of automotive heater hose to the bump stops on each head, so the heads don't lift quite as high.  That way, we've been able to increase the size of the frames to 20" x 24" without them hitting each other. 

[Colin]

Ok, since you are using their white light exposure unit, my first thought is to find out what kind of tonal range you can actually hold on screen.

This means running a piece of test film at 45lpi/50lpi/55lpi/60lpi etc... We want to know right where you start to loose dots for each lpi on each different mesh count you intend to use.  This will let you know what you can and cant get away with in terms of detail....

I have seen some awesome stuff printed with that set up...... I also know it was done by people who have it dialed in to the Nth Degree..... i.e. its not simple.  But, ultimately, it is doable.

My recommendation is to use 70/90/70 duro squeegees for your top colors.  70 duro for your white plate.

Watch your off contact and be aware of any pallet arm deflection when you push/pull your squeegee.  If there is deflection, you will see your image not line up properly from the top to bottom on tall prints.

I am a fan of 225S mesh for base plates and we use 330/270 mesh for our top color screens for sim process prints here.

And thanks for the Kudos!

Any more questions, just post away!

[mimosatexas]

Mimosa, you've got me pretty much sold on the 280.  Your methods sound so close to ours that I feel like I should be copying your techniques to get things rolling.  We're also using a push stroke and statics on our manual, too.  So it seems like if you're also doing simulated process with your setup, we should be able to follow your lead as a formula for success.  But, I realized that I have a new problem.  Where are you getting the screens?  I've been buying mine from River City Graphic Supply, but I don't see anything there for 280 mesh when I look at their statics.  I also buy stuff from Westar Solutions, but I don't see anything there, either.  We're running 20" x 24" frames.  Thanks, man!

I don't know if Kevin stocks 280 statics regularly, but I do know he has a bolt of the mesh because I have him stretch them for me.  I'm sure he can stretch you some if you give him a call, using whatever frames he has laying around.  He can also order them for you, it will just take a little longer.  I have had him order custom sizes and mesh counts over the years without issue.

[JBLUE]

As a manual printer I much prefer the 280 standard mesh over the 305 or the 300S.  They are all similar, but I find with the 305 and 300S I occasionally can't get quite enough pressure on certain colors manually AND sometimes you end up having to hard flood which will pretty much ruin your high and low tones due to dot gain.  280 mesh prints like butter for me with soft flood and medium pressure push stroke.  nice and clean...

300S also feels super fragile, though I have popped more 250S than anything for whatever reason...

I am sure Alan from Murakami will chime in here but there is a big difference between what people are calling S mesh and what S mesh is. Your meshes that you list are completely different in both open area and thread diameter if they are Saati. We use both of these as well for certain jobs. They work well for some things. The 300-34 will let more ink pass than the 280 that you are using and the 305 which are both Saati mesh with larger thread diameters. Thats assuming of corse that your not using the 280-34 Murakami sells. The mesh count 300-40 has 8% less open area than a 300-34. Thats a huge difference when not a lot of ink is passing through to begin with. There are two different thread diameters of 300 mesh which make a difference when printed. Both 300's are not S mesh. They are Smartmesh but that does not make them the S mesh like a 225-S, 310-S or a 150-S. A lot of people get it confused and wonder why it does not work like the famous S mesh does.

Hope this helps a bit as we have tried a lot over time.

[abchung]

Saati also have 34 micron thread diameter.

I noticed that Nittoku market their 120 Thread per centimeter as 300/34
While Saati market their 120 Thread per centimeter as 305/34

So do they have the same mesh per inch?

[mimosatexas]

Okay, wanted to chime in to correct a few things:

1. I typo'd the mesh I have popped the most of (it was 150S, not 250S which doesn't exist as far as I know).
2. The 280 mesh I use and prefer is the 280/34 which Murakami calls a T mesh (which I believe is considered "standard" thickness)
3. The 300S I mentioned not liking is actually a 300/34 which is also considered a T mesh.  I was mistakenly under the impression that that particular mesh was an S mesh because it is glued the same way as the S mesh statics I buy at River City, but it is not.  I just got off the phone with Kevin and I guess Murakami does not make an S mesh static in that range because the threads are just too fragile (the closest being the 310/30 or 310S).

JBLUE: I'm using Murakami S mesh, not Saati.  I was definitely confused when it came to the Murakami 300/34 I tried and disliked.  The 280/34 shows an open area of 39% vs the 36% for the 300/34.  The results are close, but I definitely feel like the 280/34 is easier to print with manually and I assume that is due to the small amount larger open area than the 300/34.  I can't find any info on a 305/34 when it comes to open area, but I assume it would be the same or slightly less open than the 300/34 from Murakami.  Thanks for posting that though as it caused me to actually verify the thread count and thickness.  Learn something new every day!

[andyandtobie]

Wow, big thanks to everyone for helping out with this.  It's been really enlightening!  River City's website has actually been changed now to reflect the difference in thread size.  Got everything ordered this morning, and it was good to talk to Kevin for a few minutes.  Can't wait to try out our new screens, ink, and squeegees.  Bought five 70-90-70s in aluminum handles for our top colors, and a bucket of Triangle Phoenix White.  A smart guy would change one variable at a time, but I know I'm doing too many things wrong at once to not be impatient about it.  Fun stuff!