CTS and Setups

[ZooCity]

CTS users, talk to me about setup times.  As empirically as possible, how did CTS reduce your press setup times?  If you could include your preferred on press reg device that would be super helpful.

I don't care about the rest of the CTS benefits as far as this conversation goes, just interested in press setups. 

[jvanick]

we use i-image and tri-lock here

press setup time is now typically 2-3 minutes per color.. sometimes we get the odd screen that takes us a few test prints to get it perfect, but if it's choked .6pt or so "on the line" we can setup 4 times out of 5 without touching a micro.  (We haven't gotten to the point where we can go an entire day without micro'ing tho)

I suppose with a very meticulious user with carrier sheets, a loupe and making sure that everything is perfect each time would be able to set the job just as fast on press... but the time savings in our screen room time  due to just 'throwing' the screen in and hitting go are amazing.  Plus a 'inexperienced' person can image screens.

the other major saving is that we don't use registration marks, so when we get things on press and in register, we don't have to go back around taping off the reg marks or blocking them out with nail polish.

we did not have any 'real' pre-registration device before we went CTS so I can't tell you exactly how much time we saved.

[alan802]

Not to derail this too much but I think the removal of regi marks would benefit us as much as any other aspect of setup times.  Reason for that thinking is we spend as much or more time walking around on a 6-7 color job taping up regi marks than actually aligning the screens.

[Sbrem]

I'm also a tad curious about that, as I don't see how it would affect press setup. We have an MHM, so no tri-loc  to deal with. The MHM FPU is super easy to work with, so if the heads on the press are zeroed out, then the set up is pretty dead on. However, we would probably still use register marks, especially with complicated art. Our press is never waiting for screens unless there was a mishap on press, and if so, another job is set up and run while waiting on the remake. There are always 2 - 3 jobs made and waiting their turn... It would be nice to lose the film making to save our artist time though, but I can't quite see the ROI coming back that soon. Still, I have an open mind...

Steve

[ZooCity]

I guess I should note our current setup:

Film is aligned to carrier sheets and to screens using the Newman Pin Lock System. 
Screens are aligned on press using either a tri-loc on our Sportsman or Newman Pin Lock platen on the Gauntlet and Manual.

We print 0.15pt reggies to film, 2 up top with center mark, one centered at bottom, but they are only for aligning the films to carrier sheets on the light table. So no reggies to tape/block on press, they are blocked out prior to press with a swipe of Aquablock while the screen is checked for other pinholes or issues.  Top reggies are out of the stroke area anyhow, along with screen info.

I do use a "printable" single bottom reg mark for jobs that could use visual help with alignment on press but this is only for plastisol, typically CMYK or sim pro.  Our WB/DC runs are too long typically to risk on press blockout, not to mention the time standing around waiting for reggies to dry. 

[ebscreen]

I don't know about you guys but registration is pretty low on the list of time killers for us.
Getting color or print sequence right, having enough squeegees/floods ready, cleaning pallets,etc,
wastes more time than getting a job registered.

I couldn't see not using reg marks. How would you know if you were out on a process or sim process print?
And on straight spot color, reg marks can be VERY helpful in determining which way you need to go. Think of a
circle centered in a larger circle centered in a larger circle. Good luck on registering that if you're
out on two screens.

For WB/DC we tape on squeegee side. Done right it'll last long runs no problemo. Make it smooth and offset the angle
to the squeegee.

Sorry to derail your thread.

[screenprintguy]

Not to derail this too much but I think the removal of regi marks would benefit us as much as any other aspect of setup times.  Reason for that thinking is we spend as much or more time walking around on a 6-7 color job taping up regi marks than actually aligning the screens.

We haven't used a registration mark in a few years as soon as we went CTS with the first I-Image. There is NO NEED for reg marks. One less thing to worry about, especially with discharge printing, blocking out reg marks. IF, there is any micro to do, it is sooooooo micro. If you are out that much, then you are doing something wrong. If you are even considering getting into CTS, really, stop thinking and just do it. We are proof that the efficiency is well worth the investment. I paid off my first CTS faster than my first auto, which says somthing. The CTS coupled with an auto will just put you ahead of the game. There is no going back. Now having an ST, WOW, it's awesome and we are only using a single head. The guys with the multi head ST units, or STE units are flying through fast set ups. It's totally awesome and unfortunately the only way to see that is to have one in action for a week, but you can ask any of the guys who have gone CTS, they would not go back! Seriously.

[ZooCity]

Reg is a pretty big time killer for us.  Even a very small adjustment on an M&R press can turn into a big one easily, the clamps tend to move the screens when clamping and the whole front + rear micro thing is kind of a boondoggle.  If you don't unlock the back clamp or use the rear micro, the adjustment torques the frame and it might come back out of reg during the run.

I agree that it is easier to reg to a mark, just one is very helpful.  I'll run the diagonal top tape past my crew but I'm pretty sure it'll get shot down, our blades tend to tear up tape for whatever reason.  I like the sound of it though. 

[DannyGruninger]

Prior to cts I would say we had average to below average times for setup. With the art and markets we print for we have lots of 8+ color jobs on our daily schedule. Lots of these jobs are short run as low as 36/48 pcs per design. Faster setups = less press down time which is key imo, keep those presses spinning is the only way to generate cash so to me setup time is extremely important. Where cts really helped me was taking out the variable of operators setting jobs up. One of my guys is awesome at running a press but horrendously slow at setting up where I have another guy that can setup reasonably fast but once introducing cts all my ops are setting up jobs in a more predictable manner along with being much faster. Prior to cts I was still a very small operation where I was not tracking as many of these items as I do now but I will say there would be jobs that would take over an hour or more to get going. Watching my ops take that amount of time dialing in a job was the most painful damn thing ever lol... Myself included as sometimes I would fight and fight getting a job in registration. On average though I would say it was taking is several minutes per screen. Fast forward to today with our new roq machines we never spend more then 20 minutes setting up a 10 color print. Recently we have done hundreds of jobs with setups averaging around 45 sec per screen. Cts paired with our new machines has taken all the skill out of registering a job on press as I can train anyone to do it in less then a half hour. But to sum it up and I've said it many times cts was and is the key to my production, without it I would not step foot in my shop again. Getting rid of cts or not having one would never be an option for me mainly due to setup time savings on press. We use a special reg pallet that goes on the press(I posted pics about a week back in another thread) which matches our cts. Running four autos in our shop now we rarely ever touch a micro nor do we print registration marks on screen. Nearly every job we lock the screens in, send one shirt around to confirm its registered then we start printing. If we have to make an adjustment it is so small I typically have my guys start printing then adjust and check the first shirt. Our setup time with roq are definitely faster then we were before imo mainly due to how secure the special reg pallet locks into the pallet arm vs how our tri loc pallet would always have side to side movement after going on the pallet arm. I'll try to do a quick vid this week setting up a job on one of our presses to show the real world time. But setup time was reduced by such a large amount for my shop/crew cts was/is the best investment for my shop. Like with anything though it takes weeks to months dialing in for optimal setups.

[LoneWolf2]

This thread has me about 90% convinced to bite the bullet and go CTS. The extra $ will be well worth it if it keeps me from having to deal with films, inkjets, and registering issues/reg marks.

[GKitson]

This thread has me about 90% convinced to bite the bullet and go CTS. The extra $ will be well worth it if it keeps me from having to deal with films, inkjets, and registering issues/reg marks.

SHAMELESS SELF PROMOTION- If anybody is on the fence regarding CTS adoption remember it is all about the workflow.  PROScreen Workshop at Mind's Eye August 14-15 will have a complete CTS workflow demonstration as used at Mind's Eye as well as other CTS users of both I-Image and I-Jet equipment.

Check it out at www.mindseyeg.com.

Shamelessly

~Kitson

[Doug S]

After replacing my pallets with new and not ebay bought and re-leveling and paralleling the heads I'm spot on about 90%.  I do still print reg marks for sim process and cmyk but rarely need them.  After going CTS, I spend more time here looking for the ultimate print speed, squeegee angles and flood pressure and other variables. 

Like Jvanick said, there is a problem screen here and there but in my case I think it's user error, tension or a warped frame, etc.  I don't know what kind of press you have but what has helped me is slowly and I mean turtle speed, flipping the frame holder switches while just putting just enough pull on the frame to make sure it hits the 3 points of the triloc.   I used to pull to hard against the frame while using the triloc and that would throw the registration off a tad.

I've made some dumb decisions in business but CTS is by far the smartest one I've made.  I would leave the house every morning with a frown if I had to go back to film.

[alan802]

I said this in another thread but I think the decision to go CTS should be based on several factors:  1.  Your efficiency with using film.  And that includes the number of repeat jobs versus new, current setup times with film generated screens (the benefits for one shop that uses film and averages 2 test prints per job and 1-2 minutes per color will be completely different than the shop with no regi system and no good way to catalog existing film, poorly calibrated auto, etc) 2. Number of screens per day 3. Production capacity needs 4. Ability to produce quality stencils (this varies a lot between shops, DannyG needs higher quality screens than the shop printing for the local sports league).  And those are just the main ones that are the biggest factors for me, others may see it differently based on their shop's needs and current ability/efficiency.

And reading Shack's post proves my point somewhat by what he said about spending more time messing with the print variables versus lining up screens with CTS.  That's the way we are now, we do many more test prints to dial in the print variables compared to test-printing to get a job properly registered.  Still though, I know we will need to cross the CTS threshold sooner rather than later due to the other factors I listed above.  I think we will boost our production capacity by enough of a margin that it makes the decision an easy one, but I don't think we will see a huge increase in setup times because maybe we go from 2 or 3 test prints to 1 or 2, which will only save us a few minutes per day versus an hour or two per day at other shops.  This decision is easy for some, not so much for others.  But if you've got money burning a hole in your pocket, CTS is by far the best tool/toy/equipment to buy these days.

[ZooCity]

I said this in another thread but I think the decision to go CTS should be based on several factors:  1.  Your efficiency with using film.  And that includes the number of repeat jobs versus new, current setup times with film generated screens (the benefits for one shop that uses film and averages 2 test prints per job and 1-2 minutes per color will be completely different than the shop with no regi system and no good way to catalog existing film, poorly calibrated auto, etc)

You really hit it on the head I think.  We're pretty efficient with film.  I would wager we could have a film-made screen ready just as quickly as a CTS made one, probably faster if comparing to a single head or slower unit.   We also have waves of reprints now.  Carrier sheet + film actually makes sense in our shop to a degree when you are talking about speed of throughput in our case.

It takes about 1.4 min to inspect, touch up if needed, align, tape to carrier, folder and label one film in the art room.  It takes about half that time again in the screen room to unfolder, pin to screen, detape and refolder after expo. Let's call the whole thing 2 minutes.  Is a CTS really going to make us faster here?

This is why I'm looking at decreased setup times as an equally or more important benefit of CTS.  We use pre-reg, use it correctly (I'm hoping...) but still suffer up to 15min/screen setups or worse. The bulk of that time is eaten up microing, more like macroing, a handful of screens that are out or won't stay in reg.  We have ample winged floods and blades to run both our presses through a couple jobs each before needing to even clean blades/floods and ink is done and often tested ahead of time.  We're working on the prep side of staging jobs and eliminating the obvious, easy to fix, time sucks but in our case we ultimately need to drop the registration part of the setup time both for production needs and morale in working through jobs.  It's a big downer to start fresh on a 4 color job and be barely ready an hour later despite constant hustling. 

[mimosatexas]

Just out of curiosity, but what system are you using that results in 15 minutes per color to register a screen? My diy fpu plus diy triloc pallet and hand tightened clamps takes me maybe 5 minutes a screen on press to register, often much less. Even hand tightening I am able to do maybe half my jobs without touching a micro and on most 4 to 6 color jobs I am touching one or two micros at most.