Best way to compare white inks side by side

[Rocky Bihl]

The best way to get a true apples to apples comparison when you want to compare the performance of a new white ink to an existing one is to make a rectangular image on a 110 mesh screen where you can load 2 or 3 inks into the screen at the same time. Also use a squeegee long enough to ride against the frame on the left and still cover your rectangular image. This way the inks line up after you flash the first hit. This method insures the inks you are comparing get the same squeegee pressure, number of strokes, and exact same cure. This is far more accurate and easier to see than printing an image then curing it then printing the same image elsewhere on a shirt with another ink. I have seen printers compare 3 or more different inks this way on the same shirt , and the poor first ink down has to be run through the dryer 3 or more times and compared to the last one printed.

[Rob Coleman]

Thanks for this.  I am interested in printers thoughts.

While I agree that this may be adequate for a quick comparison using a manual screen, I strongly suggest this technique NOT be used for evaluating White inks on an automatic.  Why?  Very simply.  Different white inks have different rheologies (flow properties).  The best set-up for one ink, may be the absolute worst for another.  As a matter of fact, I would suggest that if a printer evaluates ink in this fashion on an automatic, the incumbent ink has a MAJOR advantage as the press is already miked out for the best performance for that ink.  A real world example:

A customer was using Brand X white -- running heavy pressure (50-60psi) and very slow squeegee speed.  They were achieving good, quality prints.  We put Brand Y in the screen, and under the same conditions, was DRAMATICALLY over shearing the ink resulting in very poor opacity and fiver matte down.  We reduced the pressure to 30 or so and increased the speed by double and te resultant print was opaque and smooth.  Better looking print and better production speeds!   Additionally, some inks perform better with heavy flood stroke and lighter pressure versus a skim flood and heavy pressure.

IMO - The flood/squeegee profiles should be optimized for the individual ink to be a real test.

Best, Rob

[Rocky Bihl]

Of course ANY ink can be made to look better than another if the printer so desires. The 2 or 3 inks in a screen method is designed to give an ACCURATE comparison of bleed resistance/opacity of 2 or more inks under the same printing conditions. If a printer wants an ink to fail a comparison test, ( and some do) there are a million ways to manipulate a comparison test be it on an automatic or manual press. More often than not, if an ink shines in a side by side comparison, it will on an automatic press.  And as for thick sticky Polyester white inks that require slow squeegee speeds with lots of pressure,,, we do not make any of those

Rocky

[Colin]

I agree Rob.

The same ideas apply with manual printing.  What it takes to lay down a good white with brand X, is not necessarily the same for brand Y.  I tried the manual technique years ago and found I was not giving each ink its proper due.  In a single pull test like that, the thicker ink would always win since you CAN NOT print faster than the thickest ink will allow (at least thats how a good manual printer SHOULD be printing).  Or conversely, if you try and print fast, the thicker bodied ink will look choppy/wont shear properly and have very poor print results.

The fix?  We simply cut up the shirt/fabric we were testing with pinking shears and printed each white sample individually.  Giving each white its proper chance to shine.  Sometimes you want that thicker bodied white - Sometimes you dont.

[Screened Gear]

Of course ANY ink can be made to look better than another if the printer so desires. The 2 or 3 inks in a screen method is designed to give an ACCURATE comparison of bleed resistance/opacity of 2 or more inks under the same printing conditions. If a printer wants an ink to fail a comparison test, ( and some do) there are a million ways to manipulate a comparison test be it on an automatic or manual press. More often than not, if an ink shines in a side by side comparison, it will on an automatic press.  And as for thick sticky Polyester white inks that require slow squeegee speeds with lots of pressure,,, we do not make any of those

Rocky

For a quick test that may give you some feed back. But there are too many variables that make that test really a waist of time. I have used so many white inks that I think I can say this. They all suck, some just less then others. Most white inks start out rough but after 15 or so prints they flow well. Then after about 50 the ink starts to stabilizes. With your test you will never see what the ink stabilizes at.  That is really what the ink properties are. I have had inks that print really good from 1 to 75 shirts but when they stabilize they are too thin and runny. I have also seen inks that never stabilize. They change constantly over the run and you have to keep adjusting the press to keep the print consistent. You can probably tell us all kinds of stats on the inks that you make but when it comes down to it, we need to run the ink to know its good. There is no other comparison.

[Rocky Bihl]

I guess I am biased towards developing high performance low bleed inks for polyester. You need not get quite so technical just to measure bleed resistance/ opacity of one ink against another especially for 100% polyester garments! If a white inks has crappy bleed resistance, a basic print test is all it takes for that to become apparent.  Not every printer on this board runs 15 automatics!!
Now if you want to talk big printers,,, we have developed several new ink series working with some of the largest printers in the USA that are bleed resistant enough for 100% poly, but soft enough and safe for 100% cotton. Saves a lot of ink room space if you can use the same ink series on everything! Oh yeah they print like a dream on a manual or automatic.

[Rob Coleman]

I guess I am biased towards developing high performance low bleed inks for polyester. You need not get quite so technical just to measure bleed resistance/ opacity of one ink against another especially for 100% polyester garments! If a white inks has crappy bleed resistance, a basic print test is all it takes for that to become apparent.  Not every printer on this board runs 15 automatics!!
Now if you want to talk big printers,,, we have developed several new ink series working with some of the largest printers in the USA that are bleed resistant enough for 100% poly, but soft enough and safe for 100% cotton. Saves a lot of ink room space if you can use the same ink series on everything! Oh yeah they print like a dream on a manual or automatic.

Rocky - I hear ya, but look at your first post as the OP.  Nowhere did you state testing for bleed resistance on 100% poly.  You stated, "The best way to get a true apples to apples comparison when you want to compare the PERFORMANCE of a new white ink to an existing one ............."  All of the replies were based upon this statement.

And, you do not need 15 automatics in order to take print testing seriously.  One auto is fine......

[Rocky Bihl]

Your right Rob, I should have been more precise. I bet most screen printers print on lots of poly,, be it 50/50 or 100% so I just assumed when printers test a white ink, that is the first thing that crosses their minds. After all anyone can make a white that works on 100% cotton. There is a reason though that there are tons of screen printers out there switching to our white inks and using OTHER ink manufacturers colors..... You can make a marginal color line work if you have an excellent white ink to go with it.  Of course I am sure you knew that already!

By the way I thought one of the few good points silicone ink sellers used to justify all of the mixing,, refrigerating, using before it cures headaches was that it was BLEED-PROOF.... So whats up with the RFU Gray underbase for bad bleeders,,,? thought that didn't happen

[Screened Gear]

I don't think I have ever tested for bleed. If an ink works great for bleed control but prints like crap it will never be used here, I know your with me there.  Any brand color ink can get the job done but if you want good hassle free prints you need to test even colors. Some colors like red and yellow are worth a little extra money to get good coverage. Then you have greens some brands are seriously sticky. I have to be honest I have never used any of your inks. Sounds like you make a good product that you are very proud of.

Since your a ink tech can you tell me what the pigment load is in a white ink compared to a black ink. I am just curious to how much more pigment it takes to make a white ink.

[Rocky Bihl]

In most circumstances dry white pigment will run roughly 1/3 of an inks formulation. But just as important as pigment loading is the type of viscosity an ink formulation has. The push to make screen printing inks non-phthalate really hurt plastisol ink rheology(viscosity) especially for inks designed for low bleed applications. Believe me, after exhaustive research, I have finally hit on combinations of ingredients that give excellent viscosity, printability, opacity, and the best bleed resistance available. You can formulate a white ink that has considerably more white pigment, but if the rheology is not right, the lesser pigmented white will always have better opacity. As for most black inks the actual dry pigment loading is roughly 2 percent.

Thanks for the kind words. I am very proud of the inks I have formulated for One Stoke Inks. Our owner is so proud of the quality of service and product that we sell here, we have a 100% money back guarantee on EVERYTHING WE SELL. If you don't like any ink, vinyl, supply, whatever you can return for a full refund no questions asked. Now how can you go wrong trying anything we sell??

[Screened Gear]

In most circumstances dry white pigment will run roughly 1/3 of an inks formulation. But just as important as pigment loading is the type of viscosity an ink formulation has. The push to make screen printing inks non-phthalate really hurt plastisol ink rheology(viscosity) especially for inks designed for low bleed applications. Believe me, after exhaustive research, I have finally hit on combinations of ingredients that give excellent viscosity, printability, opacity, and the best bleed resistance available. You can formulate a white ink that has considerably more white pigment, but if the rheology is not right, the lesser pigmented white will always have better opacity. As for most black inks the actual dry pigment loading is roughly 2 percent.

Black ink is 2 percent pigment. Wow that is a surprise. I figured whites were in the 30 percent range but I would have never guessed blacks would be that low. Good info, thanks.

[Colin]

He said dry pigment.

That is not dispersed pigment.  Dispersed pigment is what you will see in a pigment mixing system.  Typically dry pigment is mixed with a plasticiser and the percent of dry pigment to plasticiser will very greatly.

As for white pigment being a third of the ink.  That is by weight, not volume.  Titanium Dioxide (TiO2) is really heavy.

As for going non Phthalate hurting rheology:  Didn't happen to every ink company.

[JBLUE]

Sorry not to be rude but I was lost at 110 mesh. There is no room in todays print shop for a 110 unless your doing specialty prints or only want your work to be compared to whats hanging in Walmart. You cant get a realistic test from a 110 because even with a good ink it is not the right tool for the job. The idea of a good white ink is not having to use a 110 mesh to print it in the first place.

A real test would be to put that through a nice 225-S at 25 newtons and see what it can do.

[Rocky Bihl]

As for non-phthalate ink rheology, depends on what application the ink is designed for. 100% cotton ink is very easy to formulate non-phthalate. Now if we are talking about an ink designed for and actually works on 100% polyester or even the sublimated digital camo that's another story. As I said above, we have a 100% money back guarantee no questions asked for a reason. We have the best inks available for the most demanding applications and we stand behind them 100%,,, anybody else have that guarantee?

[Rob Coleman]

Your right Rob, I should have been more precise. I bet most screen printers print on lots of poly,, be it 50/50 or 100% so I just assumed when printers test a white ink, that is the first thing that crosses their minds. After all anyone can make a white that works on 100% cotton. There is a reason though that there are tons of screen printers out there switching to our white inks and using OTHER ink manufacturers colors..... You can make a marginal color line work if you have an excellent white ink to go with it.  Of course I am sure you knew that already!

By the way I thought one of the few good points silicone ink sellers used to justify all of the mixing,, refrigerating, using before it cures headaches was that it was BLEED-PROOF.... So whats up with the RFU Gray underbase for bad bleeders,,,? thought that didn't happen

Rocky:  A couple of points.  Make a marginal color line work?  Right.....  Sure it's easy to make color cover, cure, and be wash fast.  Ask yourself this -- why does Wilflex and Rutland OWN the institutional printing (contract and vertical) market for color (ie color system).  I bet combined they have 70-80% share in North America in this market.  Much more difficult to make a base material that prints wet-on-wet over long runs without build-up, rheology loss, etc.  But I bet you already knew that. 

One Stroke makes some very good inks for the athletic and custom market.  I have always thought them a good competitor who made good products and did not give them away price-wise as some small regional manufacturers do.  One Stroke and Union enjoy a nice share in this market and have been considered leaders.  Wilflex has gained traction with their Top Score product and International Coatings with their 7100 series, but One Stroke and Union had the bar set.

I think it is great that you take pride in your work; I bet most of us here (printers, distributor, manufacturers do as well).  However, this pride sometimes seems a bit like blatant self promotion (particularly in this thread).  While I am not a moderator, I would ask that you keep the sales pitches to the classified section.  The purpose of the board is to educate and discuss peer-to-peer, not self-promote.  There are a number of respected people here from many companies that do just that.

Regarding the silicone, I really don't want to hijack this thread changing the subject, but since you are the OP, I guess you already did.  Nice attempt at trying to slam a product line (chemistry) of which your company does not have.  There is a place for both silicone and plastisol chemistry.  If you would like to debate, please open a new thread.  Then everyone can weigh in on pros and cons in their view and experiences.  This is the kind of banter that benefits everyone.  But to specifically address your questions/statements:

Justify all the mixing - really?  Adding a catalyst is "all the mixing"?

Refrigerating - no need.  Colors catalyzed and kept at room temp will last DAYS.  Refrigeration will keep for WEEKS.

Using before it cures headaches - Come on now.  Easily get a full shift.  Not all silicones are created equal.

BLEED-PROOF - no such thing and you know it - not even with your money-back guarantee plastisols.  Silicones have ZERO bleed resist.  You should know that as well.  While you use blockers/absorbers in plastisol -- not needed in Silicone.  Cure temps are WAY below the polyester dye sublimation points.  As a matter of fact, you can skin cure around 200F and the product will continue to cross link over time.  It works and it works well.  Wonder why one of the largest sportswear printers switched 100% silicone....

So whats up with the RFU Gray underbase for bad bleeders - the Gray is really for printing on dye sub cam shirts.  Dye Sub inks are different than polyester dyes -- but I am sure that you already knew that.    We do not need the gray for polyester dyes.  And most of the camo shirts do not need it either as the silicone surface is porous and the dye sub will literally gas through over time (~36-48 hours).  I have seen some from Asia where this does not happen, then the Gray or a standard black underbase works well.

Lastly you CANNOT achieve the hand/feel, drape, and elongation (with recovery) properties with any other ink system than silicone.  The number one global apparel brand in the world uses silicone prints as their gold standard.

Hope some of my comments did not come across as too snarky, but I cannot in good faith sit by and not respond.  Again, I respect your company and their products.  I appreciate your positional authority as the Technical Director.  I am just a sales/marketing guy, and all of my knowledge and experience comes from the many great printers in all of the Americas (and globally) that I have had the privilege to work with and learn from over the past 28 years.  Many of them are on this board and contribute positively every day.  There is a place for all types of chemistries and competitors in the market.

Best, Rob