Before You Went LED, What Were You Using?

[bimmridder]

Last comment. FWIW, I can hold a 2% dot on my wax machine too. It's not about blue or black. BIG DEAL! And at times it does matter. Matching PMS colors with 4CP is not real easy.

Barth out

[T Shirt Farmer]

Last comment. FWIW, I can hold a 2% dot on my wax machine too. It's not about blue or black. BIG DEAL! And at times it does matter. Matching PMS colors with 4CP is not real easy.

Barth out

Dave I get it and wax is on its way to my shop....yes your shop does benefit from 2%.. sometimes.... there are probably less than 10 members on this board who could even identify and explain the world of less than 5% dots. If they are chasing 2% because of the challenge cool but if we are talking business and making money then I think I am spot on. To me it is like you cant see the Forrest through the trees kind of thing I make a very solid living printing 3 and 4 color spot color corporate logos.

[ebscreen]

I think I need to get some perspective on what exactly is a 2% dot.  I wonder if we're all on the same page as to what is a 2% dot, 98% dot, 65lpi, 85lpi, etc?

Strongly doubt it. Particularly with any kinds of curves for your output. 2 percent may output as 5 or higher, etc.

[Dottonedan]

Let me refresh the steps on how we got to the 85lpi 2% dot idea.

I listed that in a post below, listing a few examples of what someone who doesn't have a need for an LED DTS might be. For example, Simone searching out better image quality than DTS. eb has mentioned he didn't see a DTS putting out exceptable image quality in his opinion. That's fine. There might be some out there that don't like what these machibes put out.  At that time, I mentioned that I felt these machines do out out excellent image quality and asked the question (what is better than) Award winning prints off of an LED DTS?  great is geat no matter how you slice it. Now, can you knit pick amongst the award winners and ask what of these award winners is THE best out of all f them (and what did they use for imaging screens)  Sure. That's where you would have to be tho, as it pertains to (is it good enough) image quality. Yes, it is.

Back to the 85-2%.

Nobody at M&R or Myself is "promoting" the idea of printing 85lpi at all, let alone 2% dots in production. Who does that in production? Well, maybe Target Graphics but that's another topic.

Then, when I asked Eb to give me an idea of what he thinks is "quantifiable results), HE said show me 85lpi 2% dots. Then, Rich replied and said he would see if he could get a picture. We for sure can show you a picture that it is capable of outputting 2% dots at 85lpi.  (We) may even be able to print it on a shirt. I'll have to try that.  

Can we?   Yes.   Would we suggest  (now, with an I-Image, YOU too can print (or should) print 85lpi in production)?  NO.  I would not,  but testing this is just fun stuff,  Its Only to show that it can be done. You have to test things and see where your limits are, or rather (I choose to). I have tested many other things that I would not normally do in production. In addition, not everyone can. To do so, you have to pay attention to those variables. If you have no time for that, then you might be ok with 7% in the 55lpi and losing below that. Is done every day and yes, people are still profitable.

I've never tested 85lpi printed while with M&R. Still tho, sure you can. It's capable of even more than that but you have outside physical limitations such as thread diameter EOM etc. You wanna see 100lpi?  It can do that also, but nobody really uses 500 mesh in here and why should they.

So let's get real and not plant anything that wasn't said.

Like I did say below, I myself had tested a 75lpi at a customers and held a 2% (on the shirt). This was just to say we did.

Now, I'll justify why you would even try. Because when you have reached for the stars, and have not been able to get there, you look back and can see you did achieve going farther than you would have, if you didn't try at all. Knowing (how) to do more, will make the less difficult everyday spot color work easier. I've seen it. Going there tho, is not needed for everyone. I just happen to like doing that kind of stuff.

That should have cleared that up. It's in black and white below, but so was the previous info.

That's the WORD.

[Dottonedan]

I think I need to get some perspective on what exactly is a 2% dot.  I wonder if we're all on the same page as to what is a 2% dot, 98% dot, 65lpi, 85lpi, etc?

Strongly doubt it. Particularly with any kinds of curves for your output. 2 percent may output as 5 or higher, etc.

eb's statement above is right on. Each device puts down various sizes of a 55lpi. A 5% dot of 55 Lpi on an ebson using one RIP will be slightly different on another.

I always loved the wet film imagesetters at 2400 dpi and higher. Those are probably the benchmark for what the size of a 5% dot in a 55lpi  is because it's the best we could get or want. Most of us would be blown away at how small they really are and how much harder it would be to hold them with your current go to process to hold a 5% 55lpi from your current or typical digital films.

[T Shirt Farmer]

HE said show me 85lpi 2% dots. Then, Rich replied and said he would see if he could get a picture. We for sure can show you a picture that it is capable of outputting 2% dots at 85lpi.  (We) may even be able to print it on a shirt. I'll have to try that.  

Reminds me of the Jim Crammer Pump and Dump.... just like fishing BULLSHIT without pictures and verifiable analysis... Rich once challenged one of my post as he wanted to make certain uneducated folks were not tainted by miss information.. lead by example.. just saying

[Dottonedan]

Im hoping that maybe you just misunderstand. We didn't say we can't or don't have pictures. In fact, I still have the actual shirt sample. We printed two. One for customer and one for me.

Now, mind you, my sample was put ink in it and print one strike off and with what they had. No special tweaking on press. We did do some careful work in the screen room with fine tuning exposure time and washout processes but that's about it. It isn't really a myth or rocket science. Just following standard procedures. If you were to try and change up some processes, you too could also print 75lpi on your current device I'll guess. Just for fun.

[ebscreen]

Dan you've got me saying a bunch of stuff up there that I've never said. I could pick it apart but I don't have the time.
DTS is new to this conversation and added by you. I'll add that you specifically left out diazo emulsions in your previous
long post.

Again, two percent dots mean nothing to me. In this particular case all two percent dots means is that an LED
exposure unit can in fact hold detail without undercutting. Add to that a durable screen that will last on press and you'd have
me sold yesterday. The fact is I've yet to see any of that information, from the manufacturer, in any sort of provable form.
Hell, I've yet to see a single closeup of an LED exposed screen! Let alone a before/after EOM reading, or, god forbid, some
scientific way to actually measure stencil durability! Should that be so difficult or secretive for a company that is producing
and selling these machines?

The fact is also that in this thread alone several people have complained about the very issues I'd be concerned with having
if we were to go LED. And not just from one manufacturer. The fact is also that an emulsion manufacturer, a key player
in this technology, and one who's products we use,  has strongly confirmed several other issues I would be concerned with
as well. I commend him for that as a major player that's like Firestone letting Ford know that the Explorer was a POS.
I'd be careful too.

With the assumption that nearly everyone under-exposes, I'd venture to say that we over-expose. That is we bake the entire cake.
We do not have undercutting in the slightest. I can not for the life of me remember the last time we had any sort of issue related to
a fully cross linked screen. Breakdown on press has not happened once in at least five years. 1 screen that fails during production
costs a hell of a lot more than the time it takes to properly expose it in the first place. I will not be inviting that possibility into my shop until
I am even remotely convinced it isn't a possibility.

I also won't be purpose coating screens just to suit the whims of a fancy pants LED unit. We coat all meshes 2/1 with SP-1400 and it works for
everything we need it to.

[alan802]

We're seeing the undercutting on the other emulsions besides the HVP.  I would think it would be the same or very close to the same with all PP emulsions with similar stencil thicknesses.  But with the Chromablue and Orange you see it is WAY worse. 

[Dottonedan]

Again, read below. But anyways, as long as you get the results you want, then hey, no argument.  Heck, I'm not even trying to convince you. I'm just laying it out like it really is. All that I know and have done.

Why?  I guess because you imply its not true, needed or possible or as advertised. That's all. It kinda bugs me. I think you like that tho. .  Anyhow, this thread really has been pretty educational for many and I can appreciate your input.

[Dottonedan]

Well, here is some quantifiable results to those interested. ABuffington had been asking for this kind of feedback.

I just spoke with a customer who has an STE that just ran a 25k order. White ink  on Royal using Dual Cure emulsion. 156 mesh coated 2/1. No breakdown at all. They used the same screens on all.
He said I could quote him so I'll pass that on to Rich and if you want to know who, so you can ask more questions, you and Rich can work that out.

I didn't get wether he used round or sharp side nor EOM. Also, t's not for me to get into what type of emulsion brand used because we can't really say or lead anyone to imagine one is better than another. It depends on how it's used maybe. All I know is it's a Dual Cure. Maybe even a hybrid.

[ebscreen]

Again, read below. But anyways, as long as you get the results you want, then hey, no argument.  Heck, I'm not even trying to convince you. I'm just laying it out like it really is. All that I know and have done.

Thing is, speeding up exposure, and not having to buy bulbs every six months would be awesome.

Why?  I guess because you imply its not true, needed or possible or as advertised. That's all. It kinda bugs me. I think you like that tho. .  Anyhow, this thread really has been pretty educational for many and I can appreciate your input.

Well, that's my point to a T as well. Burden of proof is on your side however. Hearsay doesn't count as proof, and for a company that
manufacturers machines, you think you'd be all over this scientific testing thingamajig.

[Dottonedan]

proof is in the pudding. happy productive, prosperous customers. I don't think anyone needs to prove anything. The customers are proving it.  Don't want one, don't like one?  There will be others who will. let them eat the cake they bake. I've said enough.

[Screened Gear]

Alan,

Thanks for your honest opinion of the LED units. This is the first that I heard they were not awesome in every way.

[RGB]

    I am the LAST person that should pour gas on this fire... But what you guys are not saying is key, Leds have come a long way in recent years, In fact they made the crt television obsolete in just the last 10 years, Same thing is going to happen here and there just wont be a choice anymore for any of us... Parts for M/H lamps will be sold off to the highest bidders and GAME OVER.