Before You Went LED, What Were You Using?

[Dottonedan]

Was that meant for a PM?

Not at all. Does it read like one?

[ebscreen]

Sure does. Just never thought I'd be talked to like the from either a board owner or a salesman for a company,
but whatever.

Let's see 2% dots at 85 lpi,  diazo emulsion.

[ebscreen]

Hell, let's see any kind of real quantifiable science from your company on this technology.
I'm not a big fan of end user testimony. End users are subjective, as is their results. And as real
as buyers remorse is, so is the opposite.

[Dottonedan]

Sure does. Just never thought I'd be talked to like the from either a board owner or a salesman for a company,
but whatever.

Let's see 2% dots at 85 lpi,  diazo emulsion.

What do you mean talked to that way? LOL.  Do you read a tone in there? Not intended. I'm saying, you must be in that elite group of shops that do that type of work.

[ebscreen]

If you were speaking to me, you'd say "you".
If you were speaking ABOUT me to someone else, you'd say "he".
But I'm no English major....

[Frog]

Was that meant for a PM?

Not at all. Does it read like one?

eb just answered this as I was typing, but here's my take on it anyway.

To some, it could appear a little "removed" or "distant" talking about him like he's not here. That may be why he assumed that it may have been meant as a private message to someone else.

I think that eb is just saying that this particular tech is still quite new, and until it's proven in the real world, with all emulsions, he doesn't want to be a beta user at retail prices, a situation all too common as tech moves quicker and quicker.

[Dottonedan]

Hell, let's see any kind of real quantifiable science from your company on this technology.
I'm not a big fan of end user testimony. End users are subjective, as is their results. And as real
as buyers remorse is, so is the opposite.

Wish it were my Co.  LOL. What do you mean by "quantifiable" science?  What exactly are your needs in a quantifiable scientific form?  Probably based on all of the unbiased info from 3rd party experts with Pro's and Cons in both directions, I would guess that if you don't see it now, you won't see it later and there is nothing wrong with that for you. That doesn't make you wrong or others right.


You probably would prefer some additional 3rd parties to give you more answers. If you are in the arena of large volume orders above 10k on a regular basis, then you might not ever need to do anything different than what you are already doing. Something is working for you.

[Dottonedan]

If you were speaking to me, you'd say "you".
If you were speaking ABOUT me to someone else, you'd say "he".
But I'm no English major....

Well, at the time, I wasn't directing it to anyone specific when I was talking about you. If we were here like we are now, talking back and fourth, I'd say you, speaking to you. If I am directing the post to the general viewers, I'd say he, this guy, Eb, defining you, but not specifically and or only talking to you.


I'm certainly no English major either. I just type. No offence.

[ebscreen]

Two percent

What do you mean by "quantifiable" science? 

A closeup of two percent dots at eighty five lpi would be a start.

[244]

Two percent

What do you mean by "quantifiable" science? 

A closeup of two percent dots at eighty five lpi would be a start.

I will see about getting that for you. Even better send me a file of your own for us to try.

[Dottonedan]

(FROG)

eb just answered this as I was typing, but here's my take on it anyway.

To some, it could appear a little "removed" or "distant" talking about him like he's not here. That may be why he assumed that it may have been meant as a private message to someone else.

I think that eb is just saying that this particular tech is still quite new, and until it's proven in the real world, with all emulsions, he doesn't want to be a beta user at retail prices, a situation all too common as tech moves quicker and quicker.

I can see that. I'll add tho, (he was't here at the time), so I was indeed talking about him. He was the topic. His needs and not needing LED.

It is only sort of new. I think the LED's have been out now around 3 years maybe. I don't have a date. There are many many users now and each using various emulsions...and various inks, and coating in various ways. Some very different, many very norm.  He just asked for Quantifiable science. I'd say we don't have any, because (we) don't do the production. I'd guess that the customers M&R has would or should be able to be used as "quantifiable" science. I mean, one shop that does 5 million in sales (using the LED system) is good information, but lets take that further. Average that number out to the total number of customers producing shirts with both plastisol and discharge/dual cure and pure photopoly, in various coating techniques and eom. X that by pffft, I can't even gather a number of shirts sold and dollars made.  Has it increased production for them?  Yes. Efficiency? Yes. Image quality? Yes.  Profitability? Yes.  I donno. Sounds good. I think that's quantifiable but I'm not here to sell someone. They buy or they don't. Thats someone else's area. Am I protecting my job? Nope, but it if does, then ok. I can tell you I'd be fired tonight if I were not saying something that wasn't true.  I'll tell you what I am doing. I'm telling it like it is. Thats it.

As I've seen myself, once you think you've seen and done every emulsion, there is another new one out. I don't even think about the emulsion (type) anymore. Put it up there on the screen, we'll burn it. It will be a never ending story, just like the new white ink. There has never in my experience been an emulsion that LED has not worked with. To what degree of durability would be questioned by those who are reaching, but I will say by my own testing that it works with every emulsion. Some faster, some not as fast as most consider fast. Dual Cures? No prob. Been there done that. Customers are still using the same DC they were before I got there. People that have been running a business for 15-20 years, don't buy one of these and say, oh well, I guess I'll have to decrease my production now, or stop doing discharge printing or, or, No. They say the opposite.

Is LED for everyone?  For the most part yes. Like has been defined tho, there is a % of printers out there that this might not benefit. Not that it can't, but that they can stay where they are and not need to bother. If I were in that category, I'd continue doing what I'm doing also, if I didn't see a good reasons to change. They tho, apparently are not the vast majority and apparently not very profitable to design something specifically for them. Probably because there just aren't that many of them and what is out there now, covers that target audience very well.  Eb, might be one of them. I don't know his business but I assume that since it's not for him, It doesn't fit his needs. Nobody gets forced into going LED.

There are still very good printers out there using wood frames and vellum making a good living and on the other end of the spectrum, there are other printers out there that are still using we photo films from an imagesetter and a 10k MH with 3000 newmans in the shop doing 10-50k piece discharge orders. I'm sure M&R would sell to either of that group if they called and wanted one, but the more obvious target audience is in between there somewhere.

I am a Tech installer by day. I install the machines and I train on the operation and maintaining it. I never considered that to make it (my Co), but I do take some ownership in what I do. I do a good job.    I'm proud of not only of who I'm working for, but also, what I work with. If the product was not as advertised, I would not be working for them doing what I am doing.  In my opinion, it's more than advertised. They could highlight some other areas that it benefits that most don't think about. It's a hard decision of when is THE time to make a move. Even with that said, I am not a forceful person. I don't want to push anyone to decide to buy one. That's not my department. A purchase like this should/cannot be made lightly and it shouldn't be one that you make just based on popular vote. It has to make sense for you. Take you'r time. I might not be there when you're ready if you (anyone) takes too long, but I'm pretty sure M&R will be. If or when I get another shop going, Yes, I would be getting one eventually.

[Dottonedan]

Nice coincidence. I installed one of the machines for a member on here. After install, we tested a file at 75lpi, printed with black ink on a white Gildan G5000 (I'm pretty sure that is what it was) and held on the shirt, the 2% dots while I was there. Shadow tones were up in the 98 range but that is with some curve adjustments I left them. I took pictures close up but were just phone pics.

[Orion]

Pure photopolymers exhibit a very narrow exposure latitude. Seems to me with the speed of LED, dialing in variables in the exposure process may be complicated. Without tight control on all aspects of screen processing no matter emulsion choice nor light source, weaknesses will show in pre-press, on-press and reclamation. 

Food for thought:

Dennings

Grigar

[Dottonedan]

I can tell you from my experience, it is complicated. Typically, or most times, it's difficult because they weren't doing their process as accurately anyways. We all know of and have been taought at shows and seminars the "suggested" methods but it's very easy to have employees that quickly stray from the suggestions or even New requirements you bring back from the shows and seminars. We are all guilty of this in some degree. Once I go thru what are supposed to be average or typical processes, things get back on track and people say "that's why".   That might not be exactly what you were referring to but it's a big factor.

[GraphicDisorder]

LED will end up being cheap in a few years and people will not be using MH units unless they are dinosaurs I suspect.

Nothing to do with price, everything to do with fully cross-linking screens while retaining detail. It ain't there yet.

The context of my post wasn't about today's price. I did clearly say end up being cheap.  Which yes doesn't have anything to do with price today, correct. My point was in a few years when LED's are super cheap and the price on these units go down nobody is going to buy a MH anymore in the typical shop.

Which means you are clearly misreading my post. Doesn't matter if it cost twenty thousand dollars or twenty thousand pennies, if it
doesn't do what we need it to do I ain't a buyin'.

We print a helluva lot more than plastisol on Gildans.

It aint always about you.  The typical customer would never know the difference between above average print and ultra high end print unless you show them. So I didn't miss a thing, the context of my post remains that as LED gets cheaper most shops will be using it in a few years. I certainly didn't say YOU would be using it.

If your super high end shop (which remains to be seen) needs the next level go for it. Why are you even bothering in these discussions if your are proclaiming to be so far above this technology?