Ryonet advertising their own brand of discharge base and pre-mix white?????

[screenprintguy]

Dan, thanks for the link and info. I have ordered some of the CCI/Ryo white discharge to try, and well as actual, Brite White Discharge Matsui from SPA to compare with the pre-mix white discharge Matsui that I had gotten from Ryo. Praying for good results. We have gotten our exposure issue knocked out by upgrading to a 10,000 watt SolarBeam Richmond unit, let me tell you, that sucker exposes like a beast!!!! Now, we just have to nail down the clumpy ricotta white issue. Once we have those, we will be alot happier and more comfortable setting up and running these w/b jobs. We had been burning a second set of back up screens as well, hopefully the new exposures will limit how many extra screens needed. Customers are all over it and we stopped the push for now but they keep coming and I'm not going to turn it down, just work through the issues. Thanks for all the help guys!

Mike

[DanK]

That's awesome Mike!!!  I think if you follow the advice from jsheridan and what I wrote further down in that TSF thread, you will find some relief from the ricotta.  I'm not afraid to spend money experimenting with inks, so if you feel comfortable with the expenditure, I'd say invest in a little Rutland discharge base too to experiment with...  I am a little envious of your exposure unit admittedly!  Good luck and keep us posted!

[screenprintguy]

We got a super sick deal on this exposure unit from an aerospace lab, so even though it's used, it is in new condition as they used it to expose circuit boards and it never got beat up in a dirty reclaiming screen printers area  , what a blessing!!!!, I might do that with the Rutland, it's worth the investment to us for the R&D of this method. If we end up with a couple of different products to pull off the final products that we are looking for, we are all about it. You know as well as anyone how time sucking issues can stress out the work place. As my friend Tanner Smith said, hey Mike find what works best for your shop to prevent such a "butt puckering" process, hahahaha.

1 thing I did want to ask you, what do you do for blocking out screens for w/b. I've taken a few other's idea of using the very same emulsion, block out for pin holes and uncoated screen areas, then expose once dry. PMI used our shop last month and our friends at Real Thread Orlando to do some adheasive testing and they have increased the aggressiveness of their tapes now to keep the water from making it's way under the tape, yet still having the easy removal property that they have always had. But, I know that once a pin hole that could have been made comes up, no tape can stop it. Have a great weekend Dan! I'll report all of the progress as we work to nail this whole thing down.

Have a great weekend all!!!!

Mike

[DanK]

Yes, we have about 5 different bases on hand.  Some we've ordered to test, some have been sent to us to test, some our our daily go to bases, etc...  We like to have different ones around because they all behave differently, our stellar mix with base 1 will work on 95% of the garments we produce, and then sometimes you get a real stubborn garment - in those cases, dependent on volume, we may try to mix down with other bases just to get it to work...  We have Jantex, Matsui, Rutland, Ryonet, Wilflex, and maybe one or two others, but we order and use Matsui mainly.

Tape's a big one, we've tried and searched and had to make changes when adhesives change or costs change, and we use a TON of it to prohibit the water base issues...  You have to figure out all gaps where the water can get under and start breaking the adhesion, you have to tape and overlap in certain directions and in a certain order to prevent the squeegee from pulling the tape up, etc.  We currently use the Newman 3" clear tape from Stretch Devices.  We were using some stuff from Ryonet that was about half the price, but the adhesive proved nearly impossible to get off during washout...  For quick pinhole fixes, nail polish will help you "nail" down the process!  We've never messed with any of those block out pens or anything...

[squeegee]

We have gotten our exposure issue knocked out by upgrading to a 10,000 watt SolarBeam Richmond unit, let me tell you, that sucker exposes like a beast!!!!

We've had a 10K Solarbeam for 15+ yrs, it has been a fantastic unit and is built like a tank.  You're going to love making screens with it!

[screenprintguy]

Ok, R&D part 1---

Ok so, putting aside the pre-mix white discharge that I already had here. SPA sent me a quart of Matsui -Brite-White-premix discharge. As instructed, I measured out 300 grams to test with, did a 6% activator diluted into a 10% addition of water, mixed that diluted activator into the brite white discharge ink. As I began mixing, it began clumping and stiffening as usual within seconds. I then began adding a bit more water until I acheived the nice creamy mix. It still held chucks, just like a cottage/ricotta cheese. Now, I will say, that by mixing this, by itself, without adding any brite base, as I had done in the past, was alot easier to work with, and did not get gritty in texture. I let it sit to activate, and manually printed a bunch of shirts. It stayed clumpy on press, but, did not lock in screens and stayed a nice creamy, yet clumpy mix. Discharged awesome, bright white prints after curing, better than when I would do the 50% premix white and 50% brite base mix in the past. This, I could deal with as I feel the squeegee on the auto would break those clumps up in a larger run.

NOW

I also ordered a gallon of the Ryonet/CCI bright white pre-mix discharge white. I wanted to do it just as Ryan did in his video. I mixed 6% activator, using Matsui activator powder, directly into 300 grams of the ink. I mixed up smooth, stayed loose, no water to loosen the mix needed, and the crystals seemed to dilute on their own in the ink instantly. I let it sit, came back to it, whipped it up more, didn't take much effort and it was smooth like white pudding. Put it in the same screen that I had just done the other white in. Prints came out just as bright, if not whiter, I had no clumping what so ever, had a fully opaque mix not having to add any water to keep it smooth and consistent. I feel a bit of printgen wouldn't hurt when using on the auto, but it printed sweet, and was alot easier to work with than the Matsui mix done an hour earlier. I will next do a mix trying 50% of this Ryo discharge white, and brite base, to see what kind of outcome we have. I think most like to do the 50/50 mix to spread the white out and conserve since it's a higher cost than the plain base. All in all, from this small test, I would say that we will steer towards this CCI bright white discharge over the Matsui, just from the ease and consistency that it had from mix to print, to re-potting. Like Dan said, it did have a little more stink to it than the Matsui white, but, all of the other discharge based pigment mixes that we set up with Matsui smell the same, so that isn't going to be a factor at all, bottom line, most of this stuff STANKS!! =-).

So far, what I know about purchasing Rutland inks locally here, I would have to use a distributor that we really don't want to buy from, so until we can find another seller of that product, I'm holding off on that test, although I would like to see if it out performs what we see to be a better choice for us in the CCI discharge white.

I'll post some pics of the mixes and the final prints when I get a chance.

Mike

[DanK]

That's an awesome report!  I have no idea what could be causing your issues with the clumping still...

[screenprintguy]

Both examples are direct from the bucket, no adding of brite base. Both mixed to spec, in fact the sui mix needed additional water to make it mixable.


  This is the Matsui bright white premix white discharge, with water diluted activator after mixing for at least 5 minutes and adding another dose of water. Notices the ricotta/cottage cheese clumps I keep talking about.



  This is the CCI/Ryonet bright white premixed discharge white with the activator powder mixed directly in, no water. Very smooth, very creamy, stayed nice and loose, but not loose enough to fall through 110 mesh.

  This is the sui white after a dozen or so prints, still clumpy, you can see the streeks from the clumps when flooding.


  This is the sui white poored to screen right after mixing.



  The cci/ryo white on screen after a couple dozen prints.

[DanK]

There's something wrong with that Matsui base I think...  Have all your tests with this clumpy mixture been from the same bucket, and if so, how old is that bucket?  Ours never looks like that, it always mixes out like your pic of the Ryo inks...  Ohhhh.  Here's a big one I never thought to ask.  How are you mixing?  Are you using a jiffy mixer?  If not, it's a must and you should buy one today and use it.

[ebscreen]

How are you mixing?

[ebscreen]

Doh! Dan beat me to it.

Also, it bears mentioning, if buckets aren't filled completely you can have issues with evaporation
which may or may not be fixable with additional water.

Also, where in the country are you located?

[Evo]

Uh...don't mix the activator with water before you add it to the ink. You're just asking for trouble.

Here's my fool proof ritual for the Matsui white:

(all amounts are mixed by weight)
75% pre-mix white discharge
25% brite discharge base
Mix
Add 3% Fixer N
Add 3% Printgen C softener (if printing 230 or higher mesh counts)
Mix
Add 1-3% water
Mix WELL
Add 5% activator
Mix VERY WELL
Let stand 3-5 minutes
Mix well

The only way to get it all from clumping is to make sure the activator is the VERY last thing added after all other additives, pigments, water, etc and nothing else.

[tonypep]

Not dissing the Matsui products but I like simple.........CCI white plus a little water now and then.

[screenprintguy]

Everything that you guys are mentioning have been done over and over with the same exact result. Mixing the agent direct, or diluted same thing, only mixing the agent direct ended with a grit to the texture. This mix of matsui was from a brand new bucket just delivered yesterday from a different distributor than the last pre mix whites that we have got in the past. Trust me when I say, every person leaving a comment with instructions, minus a few that don't post on this board, I have tried everyone's methods only to get the same result. Now you can see why it's been so frustrating. 5 people can say no no, mix the activator by itself into the mix, 5 others will say no no no, dilute it first, matsui will say  yes, dilute the activator for white. The bottom line is, its' all coming out the same. I actually thought last night, man, what if there is something in our water here that is making that clumping happen. I'll try a mix today using distilled water. My wife is laughing at me because she's like how many different methods are you going to keep trying and getting the same mix result. When I say we have had to add a ton of water to get it loose, man, it almost seems to double the amount of the mix and still ends up as in the pics. I'll see what the distilled water has to do vs the tap water. Again though, Jason, John, Dan, Tony, all you guys, I really appreciate everyone wanting to help me out. I've been trying to get time to run over to Pat's at Real Thread since all he does is W/B printing and shadow him for a few hours, it's just been, thankfully, too busy to leave.

Mike

[IntegrityShirts]

I've been using Matsui bright and premix whites and the premix white has a super strong odor.  I ordered a gallon of Union's premix white and base but haven't printed with them yet but will post back results.  First thing I did notice when opening the clear base is the different consistency, very clear and thin/watery compared to matsui bright.  AND the ODOR of the Union bright base.....BUBBLE GUM SCENTED! Initial thoughts on scent is that it could be good or bad, won't really know until it fills the shop and draws in the neighborhood kids like the Pied Piper lol.