Artist/Art files

[3Deep]

After reading Dan's post I have a question, how do you all deal with other artist that send you files that are dang near impossible to separate for printing.  I've got files from very good artist which are not in our field of work and have had to go thru some pain trying to tell them what I need without pissing them off because they think they know more and them thinking I don't know what I'm talking about.  I say yeah your a great artist or designer put what your doing is almost to the point of a total redraw or just impossible to sep (what do you mean sep, that's my point) for T-shirt printing.  I might have sent Dan some of this stuff in the past and I know he just did what he had to do because asking me to ask my source for something better Ha Ha.  Some of you that have been to college for art what do they teach you all in those classes just to draw or do they cover a little of everything, had this one college art student send me vector art with RGB colors not a real big deal but dam just one click and you could have used a spot color palette.  I just went thru this with a dance company the daughter is a art major and sends me the art jpeg file 72 dpi at 3x3 ok I tell her I can look at it but can't up size it, just send me a vector or pdf file.  Ok I get another file in a pdf, but guess what it's still a flat jpeg file, now can any of you guys educate me on how to educate them, not the public but other artist that send files.   Also what experience have you had with teaching or getting really good artist to learn to design  there master piece's for screenprinting.

darryl

[Sbrem]

Customers need special training to understand what is painfully obvious to us. That's because they don't do what we do, and have no idea. I had one send me an article about retro printing that they found on the internet. I told them that I was printing t-shirts before they were born, and that I'm a professional, and please don't insult me that way, nicely of course, explaining that the retro look was pretty much the best that could be done at the time with the materials available. A lot of designers are "self-described" graphic artists, meaning they make pretty pictures on their computers, with no real idea what printers need. If I get the 3 x 3 jpeg @72 ppi, I have them open it up themselves, enlarge it 200% and print it out; then they can see what crap it is for themselves. Lesson learned. So, we need to explain what we need, and how to go about it...

Steve

[Ripcord]

I've got files from very good artist which are not in our field of work and have had to go thru some pain trying to tell them what I need without pissing them off because they think they know more

I've worked in graphic production all my adult life, going back to the pre-computer days of the 1980's. Artists hate it when anybody suggests a way they could improve upon what they're doing, no matter how discreet you are in explaining it, they're going to cop a 'tude. And the more they realize that they don't understand what you're talking to them about, the more pissed they get. It's actually kind of comical. LOL

[Sbrem]

I've got files from very good artist which are not in our field of work and have had to go thru some pain trying to tell them what I need without pissing them off because they think they know more

I've worked in graphic production all my adult life, going back to the pre-computer days of the 1980's. Artists hate it when anybody suggests a way they could improve upon what they're doing, no matter how discreet you are in explaining it, they're going to cop a 'tude. And the more they realize that they don't understand what you're talking to them about, the more pissed they get. It's actually kind of comical. LOL

Too bad for them is my attitude. I tell them we are going to give them our best, and we expect them to adhere to proper practices. If they don't know what those are, we are more than glad to explain. As a life long artist of sorts (I don't really call myself one) I find a lot of them piss me off because they find themselves "special". Most I find are happy to know how to do some of the things we teach them, so they are better at what they do, and the friction that comes with some jobs disappears...

Steve

[Catnhat]

About 2 years ago we implemented a $25 minimum ART fee for all orders.  Specifically to just avoid these types of headaches.  If the files we get are screwy in some way and we don't feel like messing with it,...off to Artwork Source or one of the couple vectoring services we deal with.
If the files are usuable/good, it's an easy $25+.
 
Out of the half a dozen "Professional Graphic Artists" (and I use the term VERY loosely) in our area, there's only 2 that have actually taken the time to come walk through the process and see what we do and why we need things the way we need them.  One of them has even taken the time to have the local SignsNow and newspaper give her tours and show her what they need and why.  For some reason, she is always slammed with work (and she ain't cheap) and the rest complain about how bad the economy is and how hard it is out there and how much they do for no pay.
Had one of the newer ones, just opened last spring, land the artwork job for the city's 3on3 B-ball tourney. He called to find out what kind of file we needed for the shirts, I said Corel X7 (we had just updated) or lower or Photoshop CS5 or lower.  He launched into the whole "Illustrator, Industry Standard, No professional uses Corel, Blah, Blah, Blah".  Yep.  OK Buddy.  This shops been running since 1981.  We've been using Corel since vers 3.  Maybe you need to research your market a little better.  We run corel, the other embroidery/DTG shop in town runs corel.  All the local sign shops use corel.  The local offset printer uses corel and quark.  And the newspaper uses corel, quark and photoshop.  Guess who uses Illy?  You.  So tell me again what the standard is?  Send me whatever you got and I'll fix it.
Finally got the Corel file sent from another designer out of Wenatchee. 

[Command-Z]

People come to your business for a service and they expect you to know what to do to make it happen. It's your job to be able to take whatever they give you and get it on the shirt.

This is why there should always be an art charge. Always. Because more often than not, you're not getting production-ready files. On the rare occasions that you do, then you give a price break. But since the methods are still so specialized, and since even if the files you get are high-res and vector, they still may need a fair amount of work to prepare, it's best to be upfront about it and be prepared to charge the customer no matter what.

Remember, it's YOUR job to know how all of this works, not your customer's. Also remember, your customer doesn't put a value on what you don't charge for. So if they say their last printer didn't charge for art, then they think it's valueless and won't want to pay for what is perhaps the most specialized and difficult step in the process.

As for what artists learn, well, I too come from the pre-digital age and didn't learn the specifics of screen print art till I got a job in a shop. We did some screen printing in high school but since arts education is no longer a priority in our new age of austerity and funding cuts to school arts and music programs, don't count on anyone coming to you with a knowledge of how art gets onto a shirt. Most art college education focuses on the principles of design and the print, animation and web world, where the bulk of the jobs are.

And if you get argument from a customer on how much you "should" be charging, give them a tour of your shop and educate them on how it gets done. If you get the "delicate genius" treatment form another artist, then send them a channel-sepped PSD file and show them how much they really don't know. Show, don't tell.

[3Deep]

customers off the street is not a problem 99% of the time I redraw or custom draw/clipart with them, but it's those darn good artist that send me files that need reworking and I charge them and there like hey that art is ready whatcha charging me for.  Some of them get it and some don't, had this one guy we were going to hire show us his art very very good artist, then I told him I was going to teach him how to draw it for screen printing on t-shirts totally caught him off guard, walked out and never came back.

[Sbrem]

Some artists don't want to hear that there is something involved besides making a picture. Like Scott, we tell them what we will charge for art to recreate, but if the artist is amenable, we show him/her what we're doing, and why we need what we need. For the ones that just don't "get it", I've told them that just because they don't understand, is no reason for us to not charge for our labors. But again, we are more than willing to explain/educate them. Just last week I got PS files, and all of the art was vector, imported into PS and set up on about 20 layers. There was only one reason, they can't use Illy or Corel. Unfortunately they rasterized all of the layers, so all the smooth edges turned slightly jagged; usable, but now how we would do it. And sepping was all the more time consuming. Most seem to understand and want to know so they can get more customer and work, but the one's in a beret and have a teardrop tattooed under their eye...(I'M AN ARTISTE!) In case any of us fit that description, my apologies...

Steve

[Grumpy Ole Artist]

I have given the "physical size/resolution" speech SO many times, I could do it in my sleep! My faves are the jobs for 20 banners, & I get 20 business cards for reference...GOLLY do I miss my stat camera & contact frame sometimes! I too, remember "art life" before computers!

[mimosatexas]

About 2 years ago we implemented a $25 minimum ART fee for all orders.  Specifically to just avoid these types of headaches.  If the files we get are screwy in some way and we don't feel like messing with it,...off to Artwork Source or one of the couple vectoring services we deal with.
If the files are usuable/good, it's an easy $25+.
 
Out of the half a dozen "Professional Graphic Artists" (and I use the term VERY loosely) in our area, there's only 2 that have actually taken the time to come walk through the process and see what we do and why we need things the way we need them.  One of them has even taken the time to have the local SignsNow and newspaper give her tours and show her what they need and why.  For some reason, she is always slammed with work (and she ain't cheap) and the rest complain about how bad the economy is and how hard it is out there and how much they do for no pay.
Had one of the newer ones, just opened last spring, land the artwork job for the city's 3on3 B-ball tourney. He called to find out what kind of file we needed for the shirts, I said Corel X7 (we had just updated) or lower or Photoshop CS5 or lower.  He launched into the whole "Illustrator, Industry Standard, No professional uses Corel, Blah, Blah, Blah".  Yep.  OK Buddy.  This shops been running since 1981.  We've been using Corel since vers 3.  Maybe you need to research your market a little better.  We run corel, the other embroidery/DTG shop in town runs corel.  All the local sign shops use corel.  The local offset printer uses corel and quark.  And the newspaper uses corel, quark and photoshop.  Guess who uses Illy?  You.  So tell me again what the standard is?  Send me whatever you got and I'll fix it.
Finally got the Corel file sent from another designer out of Wenatchee.

To be fair, illy is the current standard for graphic designers across most of the world in most industries.  While shops may use Corel/Quark (shudder...)/etc because they have been using it for decades, it isn't the standard for graphic design currently.  Quark is a dinosaur and completely terrible for example, but the two newspapers/magazines I have freelanced for over the years used it because they always had and didn't want to make the leap to a better program and risk compatibility and training issues.

That said, any graphic designer should at least be aware that production might use another format and should at minimum be able to export a more universally compatible file like a pdf with any appropriate color profiles/swatches and bleed/cut marks etc.  If the guy is complaining because he cant send you a packaged illy file he is a dumbass.

[Sbrem]

About 2 years ago we implemented a $25 minimum ART fee for all orders.  Specifically to just avoid these types of headaches.  If the files we get are screwy in some way and we don't feel like messing with it,...off to Artwork Source or one of the couple vectoring services we deal with.
If the files are usuable/good, it's an easy $25+.
 
Out of the half a dozen "Professional Graphic Artists" (and I use the term VERY loosely) in our area, there's only 2 that have actually taken the time to come walk through the process and see what we do and why we need things the way we need them.  One of them has even taken the time to have the local SignsNow and newspaper give her tours and show her what they need and why.  For some reason, she is always slammed with work (and she ain't cheap) and the rest complain about how bad the economy is and how hard it is out there and how much they do for no pay.
Had one of the newer ones, just opened last spring, land the artwork job for the city's 3on3 B-ball tourney. He called to find out what kind of file we needed for the shirts, I said Corel X7 (we had just updated) or lower or Photoshop CS5 or lower.  He launched into the whole "Illustrator, Industry Standard, No professional uses Corel, Blah, Blah, Blah".  Yep.  OK Buddy.  This shops been running since 1981.  We've been using Corel since vers 3.  Maybe you need to research your market a little better.  We run corel, the other embroidery/DTG shop in town runs corel.  All the local sign shops use corel.  The local offset printer uses corel and quark.  And the newspaper uses corel, quark and photoshop.  Guess who uses Illy?  You.  So tell me again what the standard is?  Send me whatever you got and I'll fix it.
Finally got the Corel file sent from another designer out of Wenatchee.

I don't find this unusual, as we don't receive Corel Draw files ever (OK, one every 3 or 4 years). We only ask for PS or Illy, but if I get a CD file, one of members here will always help out with a conversion. We can work with anything we get one way or another, but honestly, I can't remember the last time I got a CD file, probably only 10 in the 24 years since we incorporated... Though I would not say that "No professional uses..." we never see them. Maybe folks in the Northeast aren't big Corel users, I don't know why...

Steve

[jvanick]

We now include an "art fee" in every order buried in the price.  IF (a big if) we get the art in print ready illustrator files, we grant a discount on the final invoice.  A few of our contract customers always send art in print ready (except for underbase) format, so they don't get charged the fee even in the initial quote.

[mimosatexas]

Corel is kind of an "old man's program", and really only used either by shops who have used it for a while or by certain kinds of graphic artists who use it due to some specific functionality they need/want.  Younger people have pretty much all been brought up on adobe products and they really are the standard these days.  I'm not sure why any screen printing shop would receive/accept proprietary file types though to begin with unless it is from a client they know can provide properly setup and packaged files.  Even properly packaged files can cause problems due to version/OS compatibility issues.  Things like fonts can be especially annoying if they haven't been "flattened" in some way.  I basically tell every client who provides art to do so in a flattened pdf or jpg with a minimum of 300 dpi and at the actual print dimensions.  If they can't do that, I charge for cleanup/remaking/etc on top of sepping time.  There are rare cases where I want to be able to edit text and will accept packaged files, but I always have them send a flattened version to verify that things aren't being rendered differently in some way on my system.

Back to the original post though, why would you not be able to sep a flattened image?  I can understand if they are providing a super tiny image like you mentioned, the fact that they aren't providing vector art as spot colors vs rgb shouldn't matter since sepping spot color art takes literally seconds per color even flattened images.  Other than issues with the size of a file, I honestly can't think of an instance that would make an image impossible to sep.

[mk162]

the reason you shouldn't get CDR files is because EPS is the vector standard.  I don't like getting CDR or AI, usually when folks convert to an EPS the options are checked for fonts to outlines and such.

That being said I had another local printer trying to send me files...they can't open an EPS.  No joke.  This isn't an promotional products company either.  I am about to walk away from it.  I don't need the headache.

[mimosatexas]

Can't windows open eps files with it's basic preview function? Doesn't word even support eps lol?