Spyder CTS, any users on this board?

[BorisB]

Is any of board users using Exile/Oyo Spyder CTS unit?
Happy with it? Support? Realiabilty?

I beleived it was same unit as Kiwo, Olec, Douthitt... Mark from Exile told me, they actually build better electronics with more control, faster speeds. Thus their unit is not the same.

[Dottonedan]

What you really want to do, is to view or witness the production flow of a multi color art file all the way to exposure and setup on press. Use an actual test file (of your own multi color work), and find a shop that has a machine that you are looking at and witness it being processed all the way thru to setup on press.

There are many things to consider for CTS. The decision to go from Films to DTS are one thing, and each DTS company can provide "similar" scenarios to justify why it's just better than film. When comparing CTS to CTS, Here are a few of the basics and more important ones to mention not necessarily in any order.

MACHINE COST, Self explanatory. All of the factors below, will weigh out on the cost.

Production speed and ease of use (in art department) Generally speaking, most, models have a RIP that can have the artist send most art files (to the RIP) and the RIP will separate and also convert to halftone. The RIP process, is not always including the color separations work for you, so for some, that must be done manually before sending to the RIP.

Imaging speed. This would be the time it takes the printer to output the image to the screen. There are speed options and ink lay down options on each model. This can be tricky, so make sure you are comparing apples to apples or speed settings to speed settings.

Screen loading speed .  This would be the speed of the time setting/loading the screen into place, and pushing print. (often overlooked or disregarded as non consequential). I've seen some other models that take a long time to get it into position.

Image quality. Onto the screen and how it exposes. (are you holding good detail in shadows and in highlights. Is the pass setting providing an opaque image with accurate detail? Does the RIP provide you with features that enable to you to adjust or control dot gain?

Easy of machine use, (User friendly) for anyone. This can be important, because as you know, employees come and go and more so with some shops. Training can be easy or difficult and that can impact a shop that has a high turnover of employees in a screen room.

INK/WAX usage per screen and cost per litter/unit. This cost can be very low when compared to films and production time invested with film usage. When compared between DTS to DTS, or WAX to INK versus the number of screens you can achieve with WAX versus INK and each production speeds with different model, can be substantial enough (for some shops).  For example, it may not be a factor worth considering for small shops who may do 50 screens per day, but it can have an impact on a shop who does 400 screen per day.

Exposure options  How will you expose your screens using this device?

Customer Service. What is the reputation of the machine and company providing the machine. Is it a proven machine in the industry. (This is why you are here posting).


I'm sure I'm missing a few more good things to look at, but this is a good start.

[alan802]

I've spent a few hours with the Exile guys over the last 5 months and it "seems" like their newest upgrades really will set it apart from the other ones that have essentially the same mechanical parts.  Their new unit will be significantly faster with Bi-directional ability along with different electronics that they feel is better than the originals.  But there is something to be said for the originals and they've been around a long time and are really proven machines.  They have had the benefit of being around long enough to be refined little by little over the years.  I do think the the Exile guys have something worth looking at with their claims of upgrades and I do believe them.  It's not like they have a lot of other things they work on and they get to specialize on their narrow product offerings and I like that.  There are some companies that do a great job with their CTS units while doing many other things but there are probably more that have too many things going on and some things that don't sell as well get neglected somewhat and they don't have the benefit of all the resources being funneled to one or a few special products. 

I think there are 3 players in the CTS industry with a 4th that could be but they don't get out there enough and aren't prominent (actually zero presence) in public forums and even their attempts at showcasing their machine at shows is sort of half-assed it seems to me.  I personally think their machine is one of, if not the best overall but I'd like to see more of them out there.  I don't think I've heard one shop talk about that CTS machine in many years of it being out there.

I believe that Exile, Douthitt and M&R are the ones to look at if you're serious about CTS.  There are 4 others out there that I know of and probably a few fringe CTS companies trying to break through.  The group of 4 I think struggle for some reason and I wonder if it's how they go about getting recognition for their machines or the machines themselves don't perform well enough.

I'd like to do a CTS roll call on this forum where everyone with a CTS states which unit they run and maybe some additional info as to what they like or do not like about their experience with them.  Perhaps a STICKY CTS thread where owners give a short and sweet review of their CTS units.  Mods could keep it clean from debate on them and only those who own the machine can discuss the pros and cons that way it won't get cluttered with talk of ROI and whether or not I (or any others) think they are worth the cost or why we choose not to own one.  We can and have other threads for the overall debate and this thread could be built as more of a "Buyers Guide to CTS".  I figure there are about 15 CTS owners here, give or take?  If everyone made an effort to talk about their CTS experience and do it all in one thread it would be HUGE for potential buyers...if it's done right and as factual and unbiased as possible ( I know it's not entirely possible due to good reasons and not so good reasons to not give the whole story).  No thread like that would be void of buyers pride comments or as objective as it should be and that's ok, we're all guilty of that to some degree.  I think the good of a thread like that would far outweigh the negatives of some posts that would completely ignore the cons of their machines.   

[Screen Dan]

I think that's a fantastic idea.  I'm on my 4th CTS and I've certainly got some war stories starting eight years ago that I'm sure others could relate to.

Even though I love the two units I have now (Douthitt...can't imagine better support and knowledge on the very rare occasions when we need it) I'm always eager to keep an eye out for what's bound to be around the corner and especially what others have experienced in the past.

I'll keep my eye out for that thread.

[IntegrityShirts]

Start the thread Alan. I'd also like to hear comparisons and pricing info, even if MSRP. Every time I think CTS is a good idea I look at how much they cost and it's always DOUBLE what I'm thinking they should run.

[BorisB]

I think there are 3 players in the CTS industry with a 4th that could be but they don't get out there enough and aren't prominent (actually zero presence) in public forums and even their attempts at showcasing their machine at shows is sort of half-assed it seems to me.  I personally think their machine is one of, if not the best overall but I'd like to see more of them out there.  I don't think I've heard one shop talk about that CTS machine in many years of it being out there.

I believe that Exile, Douthitt and M&R are the ones to look at if you're serious about CTS.  There are 4 others out there that I know of and probably a few fringe CTS companies trying to break through.  The group of 4 I think struggle for some reason and I wonder if it's how they go about getting recognition for their machines or the machines themselves don't perform well enough.

Number 4 of  CTS Ivy League being KIWO?  Who do you see as 4 more?



Boris

[BorisB]

We are using CTS based on Epson printer for four years. So slightly over 10.000 printed screens under my belt. German make CST GmbH. Not the finest piece of german engineering though. I'm in process of replacing it and I'm most likely  going  M&R ST I-Image (one head) or Exile Spyder 2

What you really want to do, is to view or witness the production flow of a multi color art file all the way to exposure and setup on press. Use an actual test file (of your own multi color work), and find a shop that has a machine that you are looking at and witness it being processed all the way thru to setup on press.

There are many things to consider for CTS. The decision to go from Films to DTS are one thing, and each DTS company can provide "similar" scenarios to justify why it's just better than film. When comparing CTS to CTS, Here are a few of the basics and more important ones to mention not necessarily in any order.

MACHINE COST, Self explanatory. All of the factors below, will weigh out on the cost.

Exile wins this one.

Production speed and ease of use (in art department) Generally speaking, most, models have a RIP that can have the artist send most art files (to the RIP) and the RIP will separate and also convert to halftone. The RIP process, is not always including the color separations work for you, so for some, that must be done manually before sending to the RIP.

Draw.

Imaging speed. This would be the time it takes the printer to output the image to the screen. There are speed options and ink lay down options on each model. This can be tricky, so make sure you are comparing apples to apples or speed settings to speed settings.

Insignificant difference, both do more than we need. 

Screen loading speed .  This would be the speed of the time setting/loading the screen into place, and pushing print. (often overlooked or disregarded as non consequential). I've seen some other models that take a long time to get it into position.

Draw.

Image quality. Onto the screen and how it exposes. (are you holding good detail in shadows and in highlights. Is the pass setting providing an opaque image with accurate detail? Does the RIP provide you with features that enable to you to adjust or control dot gain?

Have not seen exactly same image being imaged and printed on these two  CTS units.  I have seen great prints from wax (Kiwo, Douthitt) and inkjet units.

Easy of machine use, (User friendly) for anyone. This can be important, because as you know, employees come and go and more so with some shops. Training can be easy or difficult and that can impact a shop that has a high turnover of employees in a screen room.

I have skilled employees that run these machines.

INK/WAX usage per screen and cost per litter/unit. This cost can be very low when compared to films and production time invested with film usage. When compared between DTS to DTS, or WAX to INK versus the number of screens you can achieve with WAX versus INK and each production speeds with different model, can be substantial enough (for some shops).  For example, it may not be a factor worth considering for small shops who may do 50 screens per day, but it can have an impact on a shop who does 400 screen per day.

It is important, M&R wins.

Exposure options  How will you expose your screens using this device?

Separate unit for exposure for sure.  If M&R STE CTS is down I can print film on inkjet and still unable to expose screen ? No thank you.

Customer Service. What is the reputation of the machine and company providing the machine. Is it a proven machine in the industry. (This is why you are here posting).

Probably M&R wins. I have mostly good experience with M&R support and none with Exile.  Though european M&R support isn't as stellar as US. The only supplier's technician not allowed to enter my shop ever again is from M&R.

I'm sure I'm missing a few more good things to look at, but this is a good start.

Yes, very important for me is ability to use MHM registration bar.  Exile will ship with installed MHM reg-bar. From M&R I have no answer what is with warranty if we adapt it with MHM registration bar.

[244]

Does not effect warranty

[alan802]

Number 4 of  CTS Ivy League being KIWO?  Who do you see as 4 more?

Boris

Richmond, Lawson, Acti-Camera, Kiwo, M&R, Douthitt, Exile are the ones that I know of.  I keep thinking I'm missing one though...anybody got another player in the CTS game?

[Evo]

I'd like to do a CTS roll call on this forum where everyone with a CTS states which unit they run and maybe some additional info as to what they like or do not like about their experience with them. 

I'll play.

I started at a new shop a few months ago and they had a new CTS from Douthitt up and running maybe 6 months or less before I got there.

I have to say - if it was an unreliable, clunky, finicky machine, the quality of images it can produce is so good I would gladly take the hassles.

However, there are no real hassles to speak of so far. It is built like a military robot and produces excellent screens, every day. The choke point in the screen room is no longer the imaging, and the time and money saved not dealing with films is immeasurable. (Oh and it's Tri-Lock compatible...)

I will say the UI on the software is a bit meh, but who cares.


Our next step is upgrading the exposure end of things. This is now the bottleneck where before it was a non-issue. (MSP 3140)

[alan802]

I'd like to do a CTS roll call on this forum where everyone with a CTS states which unit they run and maybe some additional info as to what they like or do not like about their experience with them. 

I'll play.

I started at a new shop a few months ago and they had a new CTS from Douthitt up and running maybe 6 months or less before I got there.

I have to say - if it was an unreliable, clunky, finicky machine, the quality of images it can produce is so good I would gladly take the hassles.

However, there are no real hassles to speak of so far. It is built like a military robot and produces excellent screens, every day. The choke point in the screen room is no longer the imaging, and the time and money saved not dealing with films is immeasurable. (Oh and it's Tri-Lock compatible...)

I will say the UI on the software is a bit meh, but who cares.


Our next step is upgrading the exposure end of things. This is now the bottleneck where before it was a non-issue. (MSP 3140)

Perfect info to start with.  I like Douthitt and the guys there, solid dudes for sure. 

[BorisB]

Number 4 of  CTS Ivy League being KIWO?  Who do you see as 4 more?

Boris

Richmond, Lawson, Acti-Camera, Kiwo, M&R, Douthitt, Exile are the ones that I know of.  I keep thinking I'm missing one though...anybody got another player in the CTS game?

These are the Germans I bought my machine from:

http://www.c-s-t.de/en/

they apparently sell many machines.

[MarkE]

Is any of board users using Exile/Oyo Spyder CTS unit?
Happy with it? Support? Realiabilty?

I beleived it was same unit as Kiwo, Olec, Douthitt... Mark from Exile told me, they actually build better electronics with more control, faster speeds. Thus their unit is not the same.

Just to clarify..... The ORIGINAL SPYDER I machine which EXILE were selling up until a couple of months ago is more or less the same as the original Kiwo, OLEC & Douthitt units. The Spyder II, which started shipments last month is a very different beast.... New Print head Controller, New Software controller and new User Interface... plus it now prints faster (faster X axis movement) and now supports bi-directional printing and white space skipping so the speed is now over twice as fast as the old style units.

[bimmridder]

I'd like to do a CTS roll call on this forum where everyone with a CTS states which unit they run and maybe some additional info as to what they like or do not like about their experience with them. 

I have an M&R STE and a Kiwo I-Jet . Love them both for different reasons.

[Orion]

I don't believe that a vertically mounted print head can accurately place halftone dots when operating in bi-directional mode, if it can...well then, I'll be a monkey's uncle.