Image placement, what would you consider an "industry standard variance"?

[Mr Tees!!]

...we did a large order over the summer for a client of, that was a small-center-chest on some fashion-ish shirts. After they received the order, the client-contact asked as to why the image varied in distance from the collar. I explained that we adjust the placement somewhat between sizes to account for the changing lengths of the shirts. She claimed the variance on the same-size tees was 3/4 inch, but accepted the order anyway, and never brought one in for review.

...they now have an order in-house for the same image to be printed on some hoodies, and has asked to see one before producing (not a problem for us, we do this as a rule for this client anyway). However, I think that, in order to cover our ass, we need to set a precedent to her (and really in our T & C), as to what is considered an industry-standard placement allowance.

...I should preface that this is not a retail-store type order, its for a larger church. To me, 1/2" seems reasonable, maybe a bit more for these smaller images. and I still would command that the image placement WILL vary from size-to-size a bit.

...what amount of variance would YOU guys tell your customer is a reasonable (or unreasonable) expectation here?

...TONYPEP, would love to hear from you on this, as you have dealt with the tightest of tolerances, I am sure.

[mimosatexas]

I ALWAYS put my shirt on the platen so the bottom of the neck hem is exactly at the edge of the platen.  It is like that for every single shirt I print (ignoring weird occasional placements of course).  Location may change from design to design based on the height of the image, and on some designs I may change the placement for a 2XL vs a Y-Small, but within sizes and on most adult only jobs every shirt is the exact same distance from the bottom of the neck hem.

I don't mean to sound high and mighty, but it shouldn't be hard to have little or no variance.  I have seen videos with people putting shirts on platens where the neck hem is on the platen, and sometimes far off the platen.  I have never understood why... If I want it higher or lower, I move the platen in or out, not try to put the shirt in a random place on the platen consistently...

[Mark @ Hurricane Printing]

I ALWAYS put my shirt on the platen so the bottom of the neck hem is exactly at the edge of the platen.  It is like that for every single shirt I print (ignoring weird occasional placements of course).  Location may change from design to design based on the height of the image, and on some designs I may change the placement for a 2XL vs a Y-Small, but within sizes and on most adult only jobs every shirt is the exact same distance from the bottom of the neck hem.

I don't mean to sound high and mighty, but it shouldn't be hard to have little or no variance.  I have seen videos with people putting shirts on platens where the neck hem is on the platen, and sometimes far off the platen.  I have never understood why... If I want it higher or lower, I move the platen in or out, not try to put the shirt in a random place on the platen consistently...

+1

I do the EXACT same thing....my light table, tri loc and platens are all set in stone. My images fall on same spot EVERY shirt not matter the size. I like you always wondered why some printers put the hem on the platen or a few inches off the platen...putting bottom of the hem at the edge of platen is the way to go......to me anyway.

[GaryG]

We can usually do same distance down for S/M, same distance for L/XL,
and little lower for XXL. If design is the same distance from collar, on an
XL, the same measurement down on a Small will look pretty dense.

I'd say if you are talking about variance on --the SAME size- 1/2" is a good rule.
Especially at full production.

[3Deep]

I guess I'm one of the dumbazz's because I never move my platens, I move my shirt and can hit the same place with all shirts, not very hard to do if you load/unload shirts enough.  Some orders I go from kid shirts to adult shirts, I've done that chit so much that I can hit the same place because I know where I need to place each shirt, I just can't see moving the pallets all the time.

darryl 

[jvanick]

I agree.  We never move our platens here.  Hem of the collar on the edge of platens for l and xl, hole of the shirt on the edge for xs to m,  a bit off the platen for 2xl+.

Never any complaints about print location.

If you set up the screens and art  consistently, it makes the loaders so much more efficient.

[Colin]

Hem of collar is - 90%- of the time touching the edge of the platen.  That way the design has no more than 1/4 inch shift up and down.

The exception is when the design is VERY close to the collar and we will load with the top of the collar touching the edge of the platen.  Our only variable at that time is the height of the collar.  Also, when a design is going on youth and adult shirts, we will typically put the youth print an inch closer to the collar - hence printing collar on the board for those youth sizes.

We try not to shift design locations per size... but when we do, we print collar on the board and draw lines on each board where the collar will be placed.  Other shops use lasers for this purpose.

Our only real uncontrollable variable is how crooked is that shirt sewn.....

[Rockers]

I agree.  We never move our platens here.  Hem of the collar on the edge of platens for l and xl, hole of the shirt on the edge for xs to m,  a bit off the platen for 2xl+.

Never any complaints about print location.

If you set up the screens and art  consistently, it makes the loaders so much more efficient.

Same here. Within the same size we allow for a maximum of 0.19" of difference in hight placement. All stated in our terms and conditions.

[Inkworks]

I guess I'm one of the dumbazz's because I never move my platens, I move my shirt and can hit the same place with all shirts, not very hard to do if you load/unload shirts enough.  Some orders I go from kid shirts to adult shirts, I've done that chit so much that I can hit the same place because I know where I need to place each shirt, I just can't see moving the pallets all the time.

darryl

Dummazz here too, every size moves 1/2" from Small to XXL. Left chest prints move 1/2" side to side between sizes too. I can pull anywhere from 2" on the platen to 3" off the platen and be within 1/4"-1/2" off with pretty good speed.

If someone wnated a guaranteed +/- 1/4" or less then I'd probably only pull to a mark on the platen.

generally our platens are marked like this:





Obviously on an auto platen the marks are closer to the edge of the platen.

[Mr Tees!!]

...Guys, my post is not about the system and methodology, though I appreciate the effort. I have a good system in place, that starts as early as the design phase. I can change placement on the fly, no problem.
 
...BUT, as GaryG said, in full production it can be tough to get EXACT. Without an agreed upon variance, you are simply asking for trouble. If you haven't had the customer bust out the tape measure on you yet, you are either very lucky or haven't been in business long enough.
   Lets say, post-production, the customer measures and finds variance within 1/32 of an inch, and bitches about it. Are you prepared to guarantee that? Without a stated variance in place, it could be at minimum a headache to deal with, or worse. To not have it in place and in writing, especially in a case where you see it coming, is career suicide. Rockers has it in his T&C, I bet we can all guess why, hmm?

...so, thanks to all that have contributed hard numbers. Looking for more useful info as to what you would be willing to GUARANTEE, and be financially responsible for outside of that variance.

[Underbase37]

When I started printing I was told up to a quarter inch was industry standard. Not sure if this is accurate or true. But this is what we tell customers to cover our self's.
We go by less in the shop, more like 1/16"-1/8"
Thankfully most of our customers aren't so picky.
 
But we have definitely had customers whip out a tape measure & start picking at every last hair of movement...fun,fun.

Murphy37

[mooseman]

I once had a buddy who finished wood floors for a living. He was kinda of a hack at it because it seemed he always left some dust and junk in the new finish and his customers were complaining.
How doe this relate you ask ? well he printed sheets of "industry standards" from ANSI (American National Standards Institute) for debris in a refinished floor. gave these to his customers who complained about the junk in the finish. He went out of business in less than a year.

CUSTOMERS HATE STANDARDS, twisting them into a standard that is other than theirs doesn't work when they are dropping their hard earned cash.

Have your customer define the acceptable variance then deside if you can live with it. You have been warned with the red flag you got on the first order.
With the system you have you should be OK to hold to what the customer finds accepatble.

The customer is always right but you get to decide if you agree or disagree by taking or not taking their order.
mooseman

[tonypep]

As far as tolerance goes.......1/4 to 1/2 inch is real world and almost always accepted. For retail we typically adjust for sizing as illustrated above. That said consideration should be taken for shape and size of graphic. We also do a lot of non traditional placements.

[Itsa Little CrOoked]

<snip> Left chest prints move 1/2" side to side between sizes too. <snip>

Seriously? You do that?!?

We move a bit between sizes too...up and down...but if we moved left to right for left chest prints, I don't know how we'd ever get 'em straight enough to satisfy SWMBO.

Crooked prints (see my username) is a hot topic around our shop some days. I take the first strike off up to the "The Queen Of Quite A Lot" and the first thing out of her mouth isn't gonna be "you've messed up the heliconia again".

If things aren't A-OK I'm waaaay more likely to hear, "It's Crooked!"


GRRRR.....

[tonyt79]

I pretty much never move up and down. Left and right I Normally only move for XXL and larger. I normally try to move the screen before moving the shirt.